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#1
15th February 2009, 04:29 PM
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Anyway, if anyone finds themselves in such a situation in my state of Pa., just drop me a line, and we will be over there to remove any and all trees as fast as we can ! 
__________________
 Warren & Karen SmithAs of 4/3/2009 all of my previously posted photo's were deleted by mistake, so if you read a post referring to a photo and it's not there, this is why http://smithfamilyloft.com/ |
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#2
17th February 2009, 03:42 PM
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Actually the point of the original posting was that somehow people never change.
Clay Pressworth, the kid who shot the last passenger pigeon in America was really acting out of American tradition, which is basically to destroy rather than build. Consider the herds of Buffalo that roamed the plains by the millions. People came from out East to shoot them, only because they were there. Consider the original inhabitants, the American Indian, who helped the original settlers to settle and learn about the American wilderness, an occasion we still celebrate on Thanksgiving Day. We killed them simply because they were in the way of land ownership and the opportunity to make money. And so the list goes on and on. Today we blame the little spotted owl for "what he did to the lumber industry", but who was there first. The lumber industry? I don't think so. Now people in rural South Carolina want to make certain their investment in land is not curtailed in any way, although that does not seem to be the possibility at all. South Carolina issues permits for clearing land; it seems to be local petty corruption if the local officials issue 368 permits to applicants, deny the others, and bleat in public about how the landscape has changed. What did they expect? Why did they think the permit regulations were there, to favor the first 368 to apply? But it is all the fault of the woodpecker, I see. Just like the Indian, the buffalo and the passenger pigeon. As a nation we are just doomed to never grow up while there is the opportunity to make a God Almighty dollar. People will line up to do the killing, the cutting, the clearing and whatever it takes. As conditionfreak put it so well, 'What a great country"! |
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#3
17th February 2009, 04:34 PM
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You do of course have the option of moving to Cuba or North Korea....your post certainly has gone off course, and now you are becoming very political. You certainly have offended me for what it is worth. As a Moderator, I must try to bite my tongue, and try to set an example. But, your comments in my opinion, go over the line, and perhaps they belong on another site. I just happen to work for those dollars you speak of, they feed my family. It seems to be trendy to speak of how terrible it is to work for dollars. And also trendy to bash my relatives who settled this land and formed a Nation. The Nation which has done more to advance freedom and liberty then any Nation on earth. And the most generous of all Nations when it comes to providing aid for poverty, and ending disease and hunger. And if it's any consolation, we have replaced the passenger pigeon with the rock dove, which now numbers in the millions, which was not native to this land. And we spend more of those "evil" dollars on wild life conservation then any Nation on earth. So while you have enjoyed all the fruits of this country, what have you personally done to preserve and protect this piece of real estate in the world, and all of it's creatures ? Besides bashing this country, and it's people, what contributions have you made ? I don't want a response, what I want is a little more attention paid to the rules of this site. My family has paid the ultimate price in terms of blood, and we have the tomb stones to prove it. It is not perfect, but if there is a more perfect country in the world, then please move to it. I apologize to all our readers for having gotten emotional and political myself. This is an International community, and as long as I fill the role of Moderator, I will not allow any political speech or Nation bashing, mine or any others. I also happen to like humans, they to are not perfect, but I happen to be married to one, and I happen to be related to a lot of them, and most of them I love, regardless of their imperfections. 
__________________
Warren & Karen SmithAs of 4/3/2009 all of my previously posted photo's were deleted by mistake, so if you read a post referring to a photo and it's not there, this is why http://smithfamilyloft.com/ |
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#4
17th February 2009, 04:42 PM
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Amen!!!! 
__________________
 Renee www.lovebirdsloft.com People have the right to be stupid, but some abuse that privilege. For every minute you are angry you lose sixty seconds of happiness. If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything. Mark Twain Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you have their shoes.------ Frieda Norris |
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#5
18th February 2009, 01:09 PM
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__________________
 BEECH TREE KNOLL LOFT
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#6
17th February 2009, 04:58 PM
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Warren! you are a great at oration! Well said, well put. This is a topic that each side seems to be OVER the edge on in our society.
I used to hunt a lot when i was younger, but no place around here left. I cannot see either sides stance on this. been both places. Hunting is responsible for the restocking of the wild turkey, as well as many other types of game animals. Again i see both sides of the argument, AND neither side will ever be civil about it. Dave |
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#7
17th February 2009, 08:21 PM
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Being a moderator does not entitle you to take out your soap box and give political lectures, does it? Or does your idea of being a moderator consist in peddling your own funny brand of politics in the name of moderation?
Unless you happen to have an honorable discharge from the armed forces of the United States you have nothing to tell me about contributions to my country. But since you ask there have been a number of us who have fought in foreign lands for the right to criticize our government, and some of us didn't come back while the moderators stayed at home giving lectures about how offended they were. Best you stick to pigeons and not politics. |
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#8
18th February 2009, 09:57 AM
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I am glad to hear the family in York County, PA was properly compensated for the problems they had. Imagine the wildlife that is roaming the woods there!
Retired 24 years active duty United States Air Force. Permanently Disabled American Veteran Served nine long tours overseas (Longer than one year) Served 23 short tours oversea (Shorter than one year) Chose to retire in the United States, because I believe i is the most beautiful country in the world. |
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#9
20th February 2009, 04:29 PM
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When I joined the Marines both times, I took an oath to defend this country, right or wrong. When I joined the Navy, I tool the same oath.
Even now at age 55, I tear up when hearing the National Anthem. I root for the American in the Olympics no matter if he or she is black, white, yellow or red. I stopped recently at a house a few miles from mine and got into an argument with the occupants because they were flying the American Flag on a pole in their front yard. The flag was upside down. I assumed they just did it accidently. But no, they were haters of their own country. I do not like hunting. This is America and I am allowed to not like it. I understand the motivation of those that do and I also am familiar with how important hunting was in the formation of this country and indeed, the entire human race. I wish no harm to any hunters. I also wish no harm to any white tail deer, doves or turkey. A favorite pastime around here is coyote hunting, because they are considered a pest and you can hunt them year round, without any permits required. Funny thing is. I have lived here for five years and have yet to see one, and I am looking hard. How pesky can they be. Anyway. Ya'll have a nice day. Even you dang nab it hunters. Hope you completely miss each and every shot |
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#10
22nd February 2009, 08:58 AM
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The Chicago Tribune ran a great little cartoon in the comic section last Sunday which showed a tiny wooded park in the middle of skyscrapers, crowded highways, factories and power plants pouring smoke and dirt into the air and river and the park is crowded with hunters with shotguns peaking out of the bushes. In the foreground in the park are a couple of deer and one deer says to the other: "Wait, let me get this straight. It is our herd that needs thinning?".
The great unresolved conflict in wild game management is the confinement of game to designated areas. People might like the idea of seeing wolves and coyotes and mountain lion in a national park, but when a coyote takes the family pet dog or cat out of the back yard, or a mountain lion decides to take a taste of a jogger, then they become "pests". And lets face it, most people do not like the idea of living on or near a wilderness area where you had better keep your eyes open and a rifle nearby. By the way, disagreement with the political policies or leadership of our country does not mean people "hate" their country. |
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#11
22nd February 2009, 11:38 AM
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Some very good points....for whatever reason, winners and losers in the animal world have been chosen. Take birds just as one example, certain birds are chosen as "Winners" and laws are passed to protect them, and other birds are "managed", which means we only try to kill so many at a time, ...while others have no protection at all, in fact governments in the form of cities and the like, actively try to kill them off in some cases.
Same of course can be said about all the various mammals in the world. In theory, every animal plays a part in terms of the "Balance of Nature". Yet how much money is spent every day, around the world, trying to make rats and mice extinct ? But, if they were all gone off the face of the planet by the end of this weekend, how many other birds and animals that rely on them as a food source would then perish in the days and weeks that follow ? And then those that perish, what impact will that have on a whole bunch more ? Your last comment is very valid also. Much like one's own family, there are debates and disagreements all the time. Sometimes we even "hate" the actions of a relative.....but if you are a wise person, you are careful when talking to a Mother about her son or daughter. She may complain to her husband about her kids, but let a neighbor or co-worker say something about her kids, and you might just have WWIII ! I married a ready made family, complete with still at home children at the time, and adult married children. I am now happy to be a "Pappy" to grand children and great grandchildren ! I learned very early, that I must choose my words very carefully, when I "complain" about the actions of "our" children. My wife can complain to me, but it's dangerous ground when I complain to her....emotions are involved. As the old saying use to go, "Blood is thicker then water"....and that applies to family units, and larger extended families, and often is transferred up the line to one's local community, school, town, county, state and at some point Nation. If I mess up..my wife might call me some french sounding name... ...but nobody else better call me such a name in her presence, or she will tear you up !  So, yes I agree with you, you can belong to the same tribe or nation, and pledge your allegiance to her and the flag, and still disagree much like any family which from time to time disagrees on something. The great thing about my tribe, is you can disagree without losing your head, or ending up in a "Re-education center or work camp". And that is not the case in every tribe on this planet. We have employees who we hire to run the place, and every so many years, we fire some and hire others. It's what we have done for over two hundred years, and so far, I think it's worked out pretty well.
__________________
Warren & Karen SmithAs of 4/3/2009 all of my previously posted photo's were deleted by mistake, so if you read a post referring to a photo and it's not there, this is why http://smithfamilyloft.com/ Last edited by SmithFamilyLoft; 22nd February 2009 at 11:40 AM. Reason: English |
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#12
22nd February 2009, 01:17 PM
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Actually federal management of wildlife has its history in something like the history of the passenger pigeon. At the time of the enactment of the migratory bird laws and the game regulations, the commercial meat production industry had been pretty well developed, but commercial refrigeration was still a problem. The result was that cattle and pigs could be transported hundreds of miles to slaughter houses, butchered and sold for immediate distribution. While that provided the large cities with railroads plenty of protein for human consumption, there were no interstate highways and truck transport to speak of, so small towns were left to their own devices to acquire sufficient supplies for their own use. One of the sources readily available was wild game. Suppliers were people who went out and hunted and killed tons of game every week, largely for profit. It was clear to the Congress if that continued, there would soon be no wild game. More than anything the fish and game laws were enacted as a form of defense preparation. If the country were invaded, a food supply for the citizens would still be at hand.
Of course, left unmolested, wild game does what it needs to do, reproduce. Enter the hunters and the introduction of predatory species to assist in "management". The problem with political science is that it is not taught in schools until the college level and even then in rudimentary form. Democracy as a form of government requires constant discussion and consideration of policy, simply because the problems facing the governed constantly change. As Judge Oliver Wendell Holmes put it, the test of a good idea is its ability to sell itself in the market place of discussion. Since many people have difficulty understanding the political process, they are content to let "others" do it with the result that the "others" frequently operate for their own profit and not that of the nation. Slogans like "national security" and "terrorism" also give the scoundrels cover. But freedom does not come for free, and it takes much more than a willingness to silence the critics to keep it. |
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#13
22nd February 2009, 10:42 PM
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Well, and the other problem is, there are so very few democracy's in the world. I for instance, do not live in a democracy, my country is a Republic. At any rate, when my country was founded, simply learning to read or write was a major accomplishment. Perhaps are most beloved leader was Abe Lincoln who attended very little formal schooling, and was mainly home schooled or self taught. So perhaps instead of a bunch of political science majors, what we could really use is more people with some plain common sense. Problem is, once they graduate from some of these esteemed institutions of higher learning, they usually lose most of what little common sense they had in the first place. And when you speak of "slogans", such as "national security" and "terrorism", depending on where you live in the world, those things will mean different things. And for people and places where it is dangerous just to leave your home, for fear of your life, it may not be a "slogan" at all. Did you see the recent article in the Racing Pigeon Newsletter about the pigeon fancier in Iraq ? ZUBAYR, IRAQ -- Nothing is too good for Thair abu Yousif's loved ones. He buys ice each day to cool their water. He has built a special house for them, with a guard outside. Some nights he lies awake, wondering how to find them perfect mates. That the objects of his adoration are pigeons does not strike Abu Yousif as odd. In fact, he is one of the most respected bird breeders in Iraq, his passion rekindled after years of violence that made lingering on rooftops an invitation to be shot by a sniper. "This hobby is in my blood," says Abu Yousif, who wears a traditional white dishdasha robe and black-and-white headdress, as he tends to his birds in his hometown of Zubayr, outside Basra in southern Iraq. He rarely travels, worried that he will not be there should any of his more than 100 birds fall ill. A well-tended bird can live 25 to 30 years, he says, and only he can provide the care they need; he even vaccinates them himself. Abu Yousif, who has a real estate business on the side, has turned down immense sums of money to hang on to his best pigeons. Recently, a wealthy breeder in a gulf country offered $4,000 for one of his favorites, a female roller pigeon, so called because of her ability to perform somersaults in the sky. "I didn't sell it. I won't, even if they pay me $10,000, because I love it," Abu Yousif says. Bird breeding has long been popular in Iraq, particularly in the south, where the marshes offer an ideal environment for many varieties. Pigeon breeding gained popularity after the British invasion in the early 1900s, which brought in people from India, Iran and other countries in which the hobby was popular. But it has been a difficult passion to pursue in recent years. Under Saddam Hussein, the country's closed borders made it a challenge for breeders to do business with those elsewhere. International sanctions and wars hurt the economy and hampered bird lovers' efforts to support their hobbies and their families. A bird with a sterling pedigree costs as much as $1,000 straight from the egg. In recent years, the spread of Shiite Muslim militia activity in southern cities such as Basra and Zubayr hindered hobbyists. Not only did breeders risk getting shot while on the roof with their birds, they were also accused by some religious extremists of using their high perches to stare into neighbors' windows. But militia activity has been largely quelled, and Abu Yousif and his friends feel safe once more. Carrier and ornamental pigeons also are popular here. Carrier pigeons once transported messages during wartime. Now, they are bred for competitions: Breeders race them over long distances and bet on which will win. Ornamental pigeons are kept as pets. Roller pigeons, Abu Yousif's specialty, are the most popular and the most expensive to acquire and keep. They require special diets to stay strong and healthy but light enough to fly gracefully. "Like a runner, he must keep himself thin," says Abu Yousif, who gives adult birds a mixture of wheat, barley and corn. Young birds get more lentils and ground chickpeas in their food. In the air, the rollers swoop and flip somersaults, their white, silver, blue and gray feathers catching the light. Luxuriant tails, made up of 12 to 18 feathers, add to the visual delight. "I forget everything around me when I watch such birds," says Murtada Mahal Mohammed, a pigeon breeder. "When the birds fly, everyone's eyes are on them," Abu Yousif says. "According to our custom, nobody talks at all. Nobody answers their phone calls." That's remarkable in a country where most people seem to have cellphones glued to their ears. Priming such creatures is not easy. Roller pigeons can perform their aerobatics only when the wind is strong, about 25 mph to 30 mph. Their education begins when they are chicks, under gentle wind conditions of about 5 mph. Each year, the pigeons are subjected to stronger winds until they are deemed ready for breeding or selling. During the winter, Iraq's roller pigeon specialists gather in the south for a competition. Dozens of breeders have their birds fly for a few minutes before a group of judges. Just as Olympic judges rate gymnasts for style, form and the difficulty of their maneuvers, the pigeon panel rates the competitors. A bird that fails to complete a certain number of somersaults or gets blown off course by the wind loses points. One that can fly in a straight line back and forth, without gaining or losing altitude, scores highly. Breeders use a combination of whistles and the banging of sticks against iron sheets to steer their charges. This can make the mentors unpopular with neighbors. Abu Yousif had to sell one talented bird for only $300 because neighbors complained about the ruckus when people gathered on his roof to watch it perform. Once, bird breeders were looked down upon by other Iraqis, who eyed them with suspicion for their obsession with feathered creatures and their habit of staring skyward. Nabeel Merhad Zerhan, a breeder, insists that testimony by bird lovers generally is discounted in court because Iraqis believe them incapable of noticing anything except their birds. But as more shops dedicated to birds open and as cross-border trade and prices increase, the bird lovers' image is improving. So is their outlook. "When the militias were controlling things, we were not working freely," Abu Yousif says as he watches his pigeons fly. "Now, we enjoy freedom." In our country at the moment, we have the luxury of debating the fate of a wood pecker, or a snail darter. And to debate the use of lands and how that might affect the animals which live there. For some of our readers, and for some pigeon fanciers around the world, they have much more pressing issues they must contend with. Like can they go outside their home without getting shot, or can they keep the roof over their heads, or feed thmselves and their birds and/or animals this week ? So while some things may change, some challenges have remained the same, for a very...very long time.
__________________
Warren & Karen SmithAs of 4/3/2009 all of my previously posted photo's were deleted by mistake, so if you read a post referring to a photo and it's not there, this is why http://smithfamilyloft.com/ |
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#14
22nd February 2009, 02:38 PM
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Like a lot of people, I love this country, but disagree with a lot of the political going-ons' with our elected officials. I vote to get most of them out of office. Hope everyone is having a great day. |
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#15
26th February 2009, 08:24 PM
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You know. That article puts in perspective many things that we Americans (I especially) take for granted.
I worry about hawks taking my birds. Others worry about the government taking their birds. Or being shot while taking care of their birds. Or having their home and lofts bombed intentionally or accidentally. Or being outright shunned or banned from society. Funniest part of the article is where the courts tended to not take serious the testimony of pigeon keepers, because they are always watching their birds in the sky. That is hilarious. Maybe in America we should not take serious the testomony of those who watch TV, especially American Idol. |
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