Why do rollers ... roll ? The truth

[RodSD]

Some info I found about rollers.

This paper says it is NERVOUS SYSTEM ABNORMALITIES.
http://www.grandin.com/welfare/genet...l.welfare.html

This paper says something different. It is inconclusive.
http://www.labmeeting.com/papers/pub...roller_pigeons

[george simon]

Well here is my 2 cents worth on the subject. I do not have rollers or highflyers but have flown race birds.I believe that healthy birds love to fly and will show this in many ways.When I flew my racers they would do what I called dippey doodle they would buzz the loft at high speeds and even zigg zag and then leave and then return and do their little act all over again.They were happy ,healthy,and in good condition.When my birds did not do these things I knew that something was wrong with the birds. ..........GEORGE

[Grimaldy]

Two interesting papers RodSD,

The first paper correctly reports that when animals are bred for a particular desired trait, other characteristics of the animal change, and the changes are not good. That paper sees the Roller pigeon as essentially a genetically engineered bird, selected from an ancestor that had the characteristic of rolling in flight, bred largely for the amusement of the owners.

The second paper reports on an attempt to measure the excitability of the nervous system in a particular neck muscle of different kinds of pigeons, I would guess following the suggestions raised by the authors of the first paper, that genetically induced behavior is linked to excitability. I would think that even if they were able to conclusively prove such a link, the question would still remain, so what? A genetically engineered bird is the result of the change induced by selective breeding, however it comes to be.

So the end result is as george simon puts it, birds that are just happy living with the breeding characteristics the breeders gave them... and making the best of it.

[wonword]

Ok, I believe that it is a nueroscience abnormaility. All it takes is one pigeon that did a flip, and someone saw it, and caught it and selectively bred for the specific mutation. After all, thats the difference between a homer, roller, highflier and show bird. They are not doing it for "fun," as much as we would like to think that. Does a homer home for fun or a highflier fly high for "fun"? Simply no, otherwise why would a homer not want to have fun doing back flips or a show bird want to have fun flying high? So lets go over some things we know about rollers:
1) Rolling is heritable, meaning that it IS a genetic factor
2) Rolling was brought by selective breed of a mutation
3) Rollers have some control of expressing this gene (they can prevent a roll in certain times)
4) There are triggers that effect the if they roll (other birds rolling, clap of other birds wings during a roll, even a clap of your hands sometimes, a fast increase in altitude like during heavy winds, etc)
5) Rolling in the wild would be a cost, thus natural selection would remove the mutation

[LittleJohn]

A lot of very interesting opinions on this one. Seems to be about like explaining how salt tastes. It would be interesting to really know the facts on this question, maybe we never will?

[RodSD]

Sometimes I like to think that when my homers are flying they are having fun darting back and forth. I have no explanation why they can't wait to get out and fly. In fact many of them try to escape every time I open the door.

For rollers I think they are doing it partly for fun as well and their genetics allow them to do that. They can control their fall you know. I also notice that when you release your rollers with your homer usually they will not roll much or roll at all so they are not at the mercy of their neurotransmitters. Now the only way to test this theory is to wire those bird's brain and see whether the pleasure center is being triggered. And if we can get some blood we can test for pleasure chemicals. In human sex studies those are the protocols to follow to see whether sex is fun. LOL!

[telstar12]

If it was a nervous system abnormality then they would continue rolling/tumbling even if they saw a raptor.When they're getting chased by hawks/falcons they like any other domesticated pigeon fly to escape(no rolling/tumbling).I've seen in with my own eyes in which the birds are showing off ,and as soon as a hawk shows up they're up there flying really high for hours sometimes without a single tumble.

[guvensancak]

Hi Everybody ;

I am breeding Turkish Roller pigeon Donek and it s really very skilfull roller . I d like to mention on it a bit.

We are starting to teach diving a Donek since their first fly and it s really very hard thing to catch a real rolling from Donek. You have to be very patient and good breeder for educate them.

They can fly very fast to height. When you show them to bird on ground they gather their wing and directly dive and than during this diving once or more the tail wing axis propeller-shaped rotary. Rehabilitated goal in this race, spin to high-speed at long distance. There is a difference position of wing from bird to bird during spin. Some of them fix their wing onto body during spin, most of them keep the wing quarter open. Others, stretch their wings as wide as possible during spin. Looking from the side view each spin is easily visible and clear, unlike rollers, when one turn stops and the other starts, even in the fastest birds is obvious.The best dives happen in 45 degrees to Earth and any variation from this will effect the quality of dive negatively.

Regards

Guven SANCAK

[LittleJohn]

I have raised coonhounds for many years, they are trained to trail and tree their quarry, and stay there until their master arrives. I have had the opportunity to raise some hounds who just did it automatically, just by going out hunting, and I have also raised some who never did get the idea.

Instinctive reaction to surroundings can bring out bred in traits, I believe that rollers have these bred in traits, and that the better a breeder develops these traits in his birds, the more consistent they will perform. I dont buy off on the genetic defect bandwagon, or the seizure idea.

It may have to do with their ability to enjoy their flight, and their way of expressing their contentment when fying. That's my take on it.

[Spin City USA]

We can speculate all day and never find out why they do what they do. I just enjoy the heck out of them. I dont think they do it for fun, it is just what they are bred to do. Some birds clearly dont like to spin that fast and are possesed by the impulse to do so. They usually fly away from the kit and may or may not perform, because as soon as they get with the kit and are stimulated may lock up and spin deeper than they like. These birds are usuall unstable and usually eliminate themselves from the gene pool when they hit the ground. Other birds possess a lot of spin and seem to enjoy the activity. If you watch them after they perform they will race back to front of the kit to do it again. I reall cant say that they enjoy it, they are just doing what they were bred to do. jmo.

[Spin City USA]

One other thing, I dont believe the birds use it as a defense against Hawk attack(if they are they are not very good at it) because too many good ones get grabbed by the sharks. They always get the good performers first.

[wilded]

I believe it is a trait that certain pigeons had that was developed by close breeding. Just as bird dogs that point were developed by breeding for the trait. Some dogs hesitated before jumping on their prey and that paticular trait was selected for in breeding the dogs. Some pigeons just tumbled or turned a somersault and that trait was bred for until we had the roller. If rollers escape to the wild it does not take long for the roll to be bred out. Just like horse breeds that have a special gait will lose the gait if not bred to horses with like gaits.

[LUCKYT]

WonWorld, If your theory is correct, how do you explain adult Rollers that are 3 to 4 years Old, NOT Rolling till in the New Loft, and Flying FOR Months, And than one year they Roll, and From then on. i think they have some control over it. Dave

[Spin City USA]

Lucky, In some familys of rollers the birds can come into the roll or spin at 5 to 8 months. Some come in at 4 month but are not mature enough to handle it. In some familys they make take 1 to 2 years. Some breeders like this as they think it makes for a more stable pigeon. Most breeders that I know want them to come in before 1 year and still be stable and this is possible thru selective breeding. The control factor is more with the breeder than with the pigeon. The breeder can control the deapth, frequency, and quality if he knows his birds and knows what to look for in them.

[LUCKYT]

Sorry, i saw these Birds Roll when i Got them. Dave