fan tail doves?

[spirit wings]

is there such a thing as a fantail dove? I know of the Indian fantail pigeon...but was wondering if there is a smaller version....like a fantail pigeon x a ringneck dove offspring...I was wondering if a male dove could breed with a hen fantail pigeon...or would that even be a good idea? I have read in other threads about doves breeding with pigeons, but did not know if any fantails were used.... trying to see if one could get a dove size fantail...

[bluecheck]

Hate to be the bearer of bad tiding, but so far there has been no mutation in the ringneck dove that would lead to the fantail (at some point there will be, but when and where is a matter of conjecture -- barring any gene input from a scientist in a lab.)

As for crossing a dove X pigeon - won't work. You might and I stress might, get some youngsters, but they would be sterile. Secondly, the fantail when crossed to a non-fantail pigeon usually produces non-fantail young - you will get youngsters with some extra tail feathers and a sort of rounded tail, but nothing like the fantail. Assuming homologous genes in the dove, I'd almost guarantee that you'd get something similar in the F1 youngsters.

What you might be able to do is to breed smaller and smaller fantail pigeons. The fantail itself is actually a fairly small bird. I have seen what they sometimes call dove-cote fantails. These are birds that have been breed for centuries. They're nowhere near as extreme as show fans and usually live on estates where they just fly around to look attractive. The ones I've seen are a bit bigger than show fans, have a tail that somewhat bows but doesn't really have the uprightness of a show bird, nor is it as big or upright as an Indian fan

Sorry to burst a bubble here.

[spirit wings]

no bubble bursted.....I kind of thought that is how it would be,,,,I have seen the non-show type fans....I like them..the tail was held lower but faned out some....I would like to find some for display...the regular fantails I have seen I thought were kind of big....but perhaps I could find a breeder of a smaller type... thanks for the info, it was very interesting.

[re lee]

Originally Posted by spirit wings

no bubble bursted.....I kind of thought that is how it would be,,,,I have seen the non-show type fans....I like them..the tail was held lower but faned out some....I would like to find some for display...the regular fantails I have seen I thought were kind of big....but perhaps I could find a breeder of a smaller type... thanks for the info, it was very interesting.

The indian fantail is the largest of the fantails. NOW the american fantail is much smaller then the indian. And it is a rather gentle bird. Now doves white doves Can be displayed also. Diamond doves are rather small doves Perhaps the smallest doves. I do not know if any have bred down to white yet. But If you want small fantails go with the regular american type fantail.

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by bluecheck

Hate to be the bearer of bad tiding, but so far there has been no mutation in the ringneck dove that would lead to the fantail (at some point there will be, but when and where is a matter of conjecture -- barring any gene input from a scientist in a lab.)

As for crossing a dove X pigeon - won't work. You might and I stress might, get some youngsters, but they would be sterile. Secondly, the fantail when crossed to a non-fantail pigeon usually produces non-fantail young - you will get youngsters with some extra tail feathers and a sort of rounded tail, but nothing like the fantail. Assuming homologous genes in the dove, I'd almost guarantee that you'd get something similar in the F1 youngsters.

What you might be able to do is to breed smaller and smaller fantail pigeons. The fantail itself is actually a fairly small bird. I have seen what they sometimes call dove-cote fantails. These are birds that have been breed for centuries. They're nowhere near as extreme as show fans and usually live on estates where they just fly around to look attractive. The ones I've seen are a bit bigger than show fans, have a tail that somewhat bows but doesn't really have the uprightness of a show bird, nor is it as big or upright as an Indian fan

Sorry to burst a bubble here.

About breeding pigeons and doves together. Most of us have seen the ones that come from a female pigeon and male dove cross and these are all males and sterile. I wasn't sure but I'd never seen a female and wondered why.

I read that if you breed a female dove to a male pigeon that both sexes are produced and that not all hens are barren. I found this to be very interesting and even fascininating.

All that said, it would be a very long road to making a fantail dove out of it and if someone wants small fans, they would be better off sticking with pure pigeons and going to a very small breed such as Figuritas. They are roughly dove sized and the standard says 4 to 6 ounces, that is the same as a Ringneck dove. These tiny ones may be hard to find however and it would take many generations to come up with a fantail bird from the cross. Might be an interesting project for someone with a few years to play with something new.

Bill

[spirit wings]

Originally Posted by re lee

The indian fantail is the largest of the fantails. NOW the american fantail is much smaller then the indian. And it is a rather gentle bird. Now doves white doves Can be displayed also. Diamond doves are rather small doves Perhaps the smallest doves. I do not know if any have bred down to white yet. But If you want small fantails go with the regular american type fantail.

thats a good idea...i just thought I did not want an american because of the head being so far back and you can't see the face well...but I'm sure there is some that have a more straight upward neck..prob not correct in type, but I like those more..and without the foot feathering also..found this pic of what I have in mind..

[spirit wings]

Originally Posted by jbangelfish

About breeding pigeons and doves together. Most of us have seen the ones that come from a female pigeon and male dove cross and these are all males and sterile. I wasn't sure but I'd never seen a female and wondered why.

I read that if you breed a female dove to a male pigeon that both sexes are produced and that not all hens are barren. I found this to be very interesting and even fascininating.

All that said, it would be a very long road to making a fantail dove out of it and if someone wants small fans, they would be better off sticking with pure pigeons and going to a very small breed such as Figuritas. They are roughly dove sized and the standard says 4 to 6 ounces, that is the same as a Ringneck dove. These tiny ones may be hard to find however and it would take many generations to come up with a fantail bird from the cross. Might be an interesting project for someone with a few years to play with something new.

Bill

cool idea about the figuritas...hum...wheels are turning....I saw some on egg bid the other day and thought it was unusual to see them....it would make sense to stick with pure pigeons...good ideas..

[MaryOfExeter]

Originally Posted by spirit wings

thats a good idea...i just thought I did not want an american because of the head being so far back and you can't see the face well...but I'm sure there is some that have a more straight upward neck..prob not correct in type, but I like those more..and without the foot feathering also..found this pic of what I have in mind..

I've seen Indian x American fantail mixes that look like that. American fantails are supposed to be clean-legged but can have a crest on their head, while the Indian must have feathers on their legs and crests. In that picture, it looks like in between the two. My Indians are no where near as big and bulky as the ones bred for show now, because I don't like the way modern show ones look. They do however look like normal Indians, just to a smaller size. Someone said once mine were mixes too, but I think mine just haven't been bred to the updated standards for show If I could get mine to start raising good again, I'd be glad to send you a pair of youngsters if you'd like
Here's what mine look like (the white ones): http://maryofexeter249.googlepages.com/indianfantails

Syrian Fantails are an option too, but they have more funnel-like tails and they don't hold them up as high.
But I think out of all of them, you'd probably be best with Garden Fantails. Those are the ones with plain heads and clean legs, but with a fanned tail like the ones in your picture. They're the ones you hear being trained to live in dovecots in people's yards...mostly in England and other parts of Europe. I don't know how big those are though since I've never seen them...just pictures. They are supposed to have a little bit more of a homing ability than a normal fantail though, according to people who have them.

[spirit wings]

Originally Posted by MaryOfExeter

I've seen Indian x American fantail mixes that look like that. American fantails are supposed to be clean-legged but can have a crest on their head, while the Indian must have feathers on their legs and crests. In that picture, it looks like in between the two. My Indians are no where near as big and bulky as the ones bred for show now, because I don't like the way modern show ones look. They do however look like normal Indians, just to a smaller size. Someone said once mine were mixes too, but I think mine just haven't been bred to the updated standards for show If I could get mine to start raising good again, I'd be glad to send you a pair of youngsters if you'd like
Here's what mine look like (the white ones): http://maryofexeter249.googlepages.com/indianfantails

Syrian Fantails are an option too, but they have more funnel-like tails and they don't hold them up as high.
But I think out of all of them, you'd probably be best with Garden Fantails. Those are the ones with plain heads and clean legs, but with a fanned tail like the ones in your picture. They're the ones you hear being trained to live in dovecots in people's yards...mostly in England and other parts of Europe. I don't know how big those are though since I've never seen them...just pictures. They are supposed to have a little bit more of a homing ability than a normal fantail though, according to people who have them.

I googled image of garden fantail and that is exactly what I had in mind...I did not know they had a name....they seem more petite in stature and I do like the tails not so large....easier to fit in a display cage...do you know anyone that has this type pij?....thanks for the offer of yours they are beautiful...just a little rounder and huskier than what I have in mind.... I'm learning alot here about these beautiful birds. thanks so much!

[MaryOfExeter]

I went on a frantic search for Thailand fantails a couple months ago, so I ended up reading and learning a lot about all the different types of fantails. Never actually found any Thai breeders though
I'm looking for anyone with garden fantails, but all I'm finding is a few here and there on UK pigeon forums like this one. I'll keep looking though.
If I'm not mistaken...I think one of our members, Becca, has Garden Fantails? Either that or she might have asked about them once. She might be able to help you as well.

[Lovebirds]

Isn't there a new breed of fantasy fantails that are smaller then the normal ones? I thought I had seen them on Eggbid before........could be wrong.

[MaryOfExeter]

All I remember hearing about Fantasies were the silky ones

[bigislerollers]

Here is a link to someone who raises fantasies.

http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com/pegasus_nfs/

[Msfreebird]

Originally Posted by Lovebirds

Isn't there a new breed of fantasy fantails that are smaller then the normal ones? I thought I had seen them on Eggbid before........could be wrong.

I was going to mention the "Fantasy's" also. I saw some on Eggbid a week or 2 ago.

[maryjane]

Originally Posted by jbangelfish

About breeding pigeons and doves together. Most of us have seen the ones that come from a female pigeon and male dove cross and these are all males and sterile. I wasn't sure but I'd never seen a female and wondered why.

I read that if you breed a female dove to a male pigeon that both sexes are produced and that not all hens are barren. I found this to be very interesting and even fascininating.

Bill

I don't know if you read that in one of my posts, Bill, but if so it's the other way around. I had a male pigeon and female dove hatch only males. My female pigeon and male dove hatched one of each, and the female even lays eggs, which don't seem to be fertile. Of course that's just my personal experiences. A fantail dove sure would look cool.