grizel genetics white bird link

[kingsley hannah]

hi there everone
i am always trying to improve and diversifie my white "dove release" flock
for both homing ability and size (smaler is better, although this definatly is not a major for me)
i have been offered 2 racing birds, and have included the email i recived below,
my question is would it be advisable to get these 2 birds and, if so what would the best breading programe be with them??????

see below for the bird details

"Hi there i used to have whites but lost it in a race from up north.not many people have whites these days,and the whites are usually from light grizzle's family, I have a very light grizzle male, almost white and a light grizzle hen, you could buy, and you could maybe try breeding some.

[RodSD]

I think people think of pure white dove when they think of dove release program. Grizzle will throw grizzle, too. Will that ok for you in your breeding program?

[george simon]

First let me say that you should have posted this on the genetics fourm in pigeon talk. many of the white birds used in the white bird release busness are in fact white grizzle. You see when one mates grizzle to grizzle the young get whiter and lose the dark feathers.On the other hand Grizzle is not realy a color but rather a factor that hides the true color of the bird that is why some people get a youngster that show color from two white birds that realy are white grizzle.GEORGE

[TAWhatley]

Just moved the thread to the genetics forum.

Terry

[jbangelfish]

If you can find recessive white birds, they will never produce anything but white, when bred together. These birds are normally bull eyed (dark). It is fairly common in homing pigeons.

As George says, many whites are in fact homozygous ash red grizzles that have been bred together until pure white birds have been made. These breed true most of the time, avoid stained beaks and you should keep all whites. Breed one of these to a recessive white and you can get just about anything except white.

The term "white grizzle" has taken on a new meaning as some feel that it is a new gene and it is not an all white bird but a very light one. Confusing because there are many types of grizzles that can be near white. I don't know if it deserves a separate gene title or not but seems to be accepted by half or so of the top genetic guys. I sometimes think we are too quick to proclaim something new when in fact it may be the result of several old genes that have found their way together and presented something that appears as "new". Of course, I could be dead wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

Bill

[kingsley hannah]

first thanks for moving to genetics page
i am gettin a little confused (dosent take much)
i am now not sure wether i should try breading white to light grizel or not?
i have a couple of whites with "stained beeks" and as you say they dont give me many white babys (if any)

[jbangelfish]

Recessive white is a different gene altogether and always makes white birds, no colored feathers. They will have the dark bull eyes.

Whites that come from grizzle may be alittle more common but there are plenty of homers that are recessive white. The whites from grizzle usually have orange colored eyes. There are also plenty of these that are pretty reliable in producing white young but when you start to see the dark color in beaks, the trouble is beginning and you should not use them as breeders to continue an all white breeding program.

Bill

[kingsley hannah]

thanks bill
well my mission is now to start getting 3 racing birds, and i will pair them up with 3 of my whites next year,
should i get all hens all cocks? mix?
and whats the best form for recording the crosses etc on

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by kingsley hannah

thanks bill
well my mission is now to start getting 3 racing birds, and i will pair them up with 3 of my whites next year,
should i get all hens all cocks? mix?
and whats the best form for recording the crosses etc on

What sex are your whites? Seems that yours are the grizzle types from what I've read. Just remember to keep the orange eyed ones to themselves and the bull eyed ones to themselves if you have both otherwise you'll have a mess of non white birds.

I'm old fashioned I guess, I use a pen and paper. I've kept a journal on my pigeon breeding for well over 30 years. I write down every egg laid, every baby that hatches and dates, keep track of band numbers, and note the genes or colors that I can see as soon as I see anything. Often, these change over time as it's not always obvious what you have in the beginning and some can even change after moult. Each pair will have a page in my book for the breeding season and each youngster will be entered at least once on another page making note of what pair it came from and what my final decisions were as to color etc. This is where I start sorting for my next years breeding program.

I have heard that there are good programs for the computer for this purpose. Mine are tailor made for me cuz I make em and I spend plenty of time on the computer as it is. Gives me a break and this way I don't forget how to use a pen.

Bill

[re lee]

Do not let people say grizzle to white will ruin your whites. In fact for improvement in homing abiltity It will for sure help the program. And you will raise solid whites with bull eyes Some with mixed 1 bull 1 partly bull. And some colored eyed birds. PLUS you will unmask the white may get yellows opals reds ects. And yes grizzle birds. NOW keep the whites even colored beak birds HENS best Use white cock over grizzle hens As you get white at a fastyer rate ratyher then grizzle cock over white hen as you see less soloid whites the first generation. Blue grizzle red grizzle it does not matter Grizzle depth does not matter either. White grizzle as a racing term Is less marked in grizzle pattern You can take any color and get white BUt it seems grizzle will move you over at a faster pace. AND the color any color over grizzle then to white can work to improve your whites. DIscard the colored birds you raise from thisAs they are 50 50 in the program anyway. . When the birds have set there color they will throw mostly all white birds remember to keep this going over time As you willneed to keep your quality of homing instinct strong White just masks another color in the back ground for the most part No one can tell an all white bird with horn beak and bull eyes from another color to say yes its a white grizzleIts what it masked over that in the early stages can come forward to be seen in the young. BUt you breed that down to where it does not appear very often. White cock over grizzle hen you may very well get 50% whites 25% grizzle 25% any other color.But At least 25 to 30 % should be white some stained beak some two to three colored feathers Some horned beak all bull eyed Been there done that So I know it will work and is great for any breed to not get color blind to improve quality With race birds any thing other then bars and checks in the blue Its best to work a program to keep the color flying well. In show birds Its the same Keep the idea in the color or you just have pretty color and no quality before to long.

[spirit wings]

Originally Posted by re lee

Do not let people say grizzle to white will ruin your whites. In fact for improvement in homing abiltity It will for sure help the program. And you will raise solid whites with bull eyes Some with mixed 1 bull 1 partly bull. And some colored eyed birds. PLUS you will unmask the white may get yellows opals reds ects. And yes grizzle birds. NOW keep the whites even colored beak birds HENS best Use white cock over grizzle hens As you get white at a fastyer rate ratyher then grizzle cock over white hen as you see less soloid whites the first generation. Blue grizzle red grizzle it does not matter Grizzle depth does not matter either. White grizzle as a racing term Is less marked in grizzle pattern You can take any color and get white BUt it seems grizzle will move you over at a faster pace. AND the color any color over grizzle then to white can work to improve your whites. DIscard the colored birds you raise from thisAs they are 50 50 in the program anyway. . When the birds have set there color they will throw mostly all white birds remember to keep this going over time As you willneed to keep your quality of homing instinct strong White just masks another color in the back ground for the most part No one can tell an all white bird with horn beak and bull eyes from another color to say yes its a white grizzleIts what it masked over that in the early stages can come forward to be seen in the young. BUt you breed that down to where it does not appear very often. White cock over grizzle hen you may very well get 50% whites 25% grizzle 25% any other color.But At least 25 to 30 % should be white some stained beak some two to three colored feathers Some horned beak all bull eyed Been there done that So I know it will work and is great for any breed to not get color blind to improve quality With race birds any thing other then bars and checks in the blue Its best to work a program to keep the color flying well. In show birds Its the same Keep the idea in the color or you just have pretty color and no quality before to long.

very helpful, glad to be reading your posts again.