It's NOT a Mosaic

[Fbirdie82]

Originally Posted by jbangelfish

Link is an almond breeder. I don't know for sure if this one came from almond x almond or almond x kite but it is from almond breeding. That's my point.

Link raises more than just almond.

[george simon]

The point here is Almonds are tri color birds in this case the three colors were not dispersed as they should be thus making it a poor ALMOND.I have a recessive red in my loft right now that is of the type that molts in a lot of white now this bird has a white tail except for one BLUE feather now there are many MOSAICS that will show only a few feathers of a different color for the most part most of these birds are over look.Now in the case of my recessive red with the one blue tail feather some would say that this bird is a MOSAIC he is not.Why ...recessive red is a blue bird that the modifier recessive red hides the blue in this it case did a poor job of covering the blue. GEORGE

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by Fbirdie82

Link raises more than just almond.

But this "mosaic" came from almond breeding, as do many of this type.

Bill

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by george simon

The point here is Almonds are tri color birds in this case the three colors were not dispersed as they should be thus making it a poor ALMOND.I have a recessive red in my loft right now that is of the type that molts in a lot of white now this bird has a white tail except for one BLUE feather now there are many MOSAICS that will show only a few feathers of a different color for the most part most of these birds are over look.Now in the case of my recessive red with the one blue tail feather some would say that this bird is a MOSAIC he is not.Why ...recessive red is a blue bird that the modifier recessive red hides the blue in this it case did a poor job of covering the blue. GEORGE

I have a red mottle roller with 3 or 4 blue tail feathers and it is as you say, the recessive red didn't do a complete job of masking the blue. Still makes an interesting looking bird. Why didn't it? Wouldn't it be interesting if we could figure out why this happens and start to make birds that are half red, half blue, half red, half black etc? These birds already exist and they tend to get labeled as mosaics because of how they look.

I'm saying that most of them are not the result of a two sperm or two egg phenomenon, rather a simple genetic glitch that we are likely to learn alot about in the near future.

They show up in almond breeding more than anywhere else because, like you say, almond is already tricolored and puts colors together that are not normally together unless almond is (stipper) in their genetic makeup.

The same is true in ash reds that are split for blue. The normal black flecks that we see in ash red cocks can also be carried to an extreme and create pigeons that we would all look at and say they are almonds. I don't remember seeing any of these that I would call mosaics but they were certainly easily confused with almond.

Whatever makes these things happen, that takes them outside the norm, warrants some study and working with them to see what can be done with it in my opinion.

I just think it's kind of funny that people look at these wildly marked birds such as Link's bird, mostly black with a large yellow patch on the wing, and accept it is a mosaic because it looks like one. If we don't want to accept that this occurs without the two sperm or two egg occurance, then this bird should not be called "mosaic" either, just a poor quality almond, which is what it would be.

I don't have any problem calling any of these birds "mosaic", just a different kind of mosaicism than what Doc described so long ago.

Bill

[MaryOfExeter]

I was thinking that "mosaic" wasn't really one either, because the yellowish patch looks like an almond color, and it looks like it just happened to have some very huge patches instead of the smaller patched 'poor' almonds. When I think mosaic, I think of two different patterns, or birds like part ash-red part blue, etc. It would be interesting to have tests done on mosaics to see if their DNA holds any secrets that would tell us if a bird is really a mosaic, or just a trick through almond and other genes like RR.

[TerriB]

Originally Posted by jbangelfish

You can breed almond to almond but there is a problem called "bladder eye" that sometimes comes with this...Bill

Bill, can you provide a bit more information about "bladder eye"? Thanks!

[MaryOfExeter]

I think what he's talking about is how sometimes almond in the homozygous form, can be lethal, or produce birds with vision problems, which I'm guessing is called 'bladder eye'? I didn't know that's what it was called.

[george simon]

Originally Posted by MaryOfExeter

I was thinking that "mosaic" wasn't really only either, because the yellowish patch looks like an almond color, and it looks like it just happened to have some very huge patches instead of the smaller patched 'poor' almonds. When I think mosaic, I think of two different patterns, or birds like part ash-red part blue, etc. It would be interesting to have tests done on mosaics to see if their DNA holds any secrets that would tell us if a bird is really a mosaic, or just a trick through almond and other genes like RR.

Hi BECKEY,If you have Joe Quinn's Pigeon Breeder's Notebook in his discussion of White on pages 103-104 he speaks of pigment cells. These cells develop in the pigeon embryo in an area called the neural crest , these cells like sperm cells have the power of movement.These Melanin-producing cells migrate in all directions from the neural crest carring melanocytes(pigment-forming cells). Generally these cells take up residence in different densities related to the distance traveled.These cells are very sensitive to small changes in tissue environment, egg temperature,disease,tissue damage,and other conitions,may enhance or surpress pigment formation.Both nutrition and gene action can play a role and this can happen at any time from the cells formation in the neural crest,to its functioning existence throughout the epidermal layers.One other thing these cells have an alotted time to arrive that their destination if they fail to get there that feather or feathers will be white. I feel that the action or non-action in the embryo, of these cells may be at work in creating Almonds.I wish that I had more knowledge in the study of genetics. GEORGE

[MaryOfExeter]

Sounds like I need that book, haha. Right now all I've got is The Pigeon, which, I'm nowhere near the genetics section yet, haha.

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by TerriB

Bill, can you provide a bit more information about "bladder eye"? Thanks!

When almond birds are bred together, they sometimes create "bladder eyed" birds. I believe that this is one that is considered "sublethal" but still undesirable. Still, many almond breeders breed almonds together, especially if they only see this once in a great while.

From my understanding, the bird usually has one eye that is not exactly where it is supposed to be, maybe outside the socket, not really sure but somewhat higher on the head than normal and blind. This has kept me from putting two almonds together as I don't see it as necessary to create good almonds. I have never had a "bladder eyed" bird, nor do I wish to make one.

Bill

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by MaryOfExeter

I was thinking that "mosaic" wasn't really only either, because the yellowish patch looks like an almond color, and it looks like it just happened to have some very huge patches instead of the smaller patched 'poor' almonds. When I think mosaic, I think of two different patterns, or birds like part ash-red part blue, etc. It would be interesting to have tests done on mosaics to see if their DNA holds any secrets that would tell us if a bird is really a mosaic, or just a trick through almond and other genes like RR.

I understand the birds that you are referring to and it is hard to explain them any other way than to say that they came from the two egg or two sperm idea. I have a figurita hen that is spread ash red but has both intense and dilute feathers. Since a hen cannot carry dilute if she is intense, I have no other explanation for her.

Still, a bird can carry both check and bar, ash red and blue (cocks only), check and barless, intense and dilute (cocks), etc. Many, especially cock birds have a multitude of genes that they only carry and do not show. For that reason, you will find a lot more cock mosaics than hens and just adds fuel to my argument that many of these are not the "true, old fashioned mosaic" but are an anomoly of some genetic condition that we do not fully understand.

As I've said before, I'm working on it and fully intend to understand it, with or without the help of others who may or may not agree. Most simply do not agree that there is any other form of mosaicism than the old theory of two sperms or two eggs. The two egg theorum is quite a bit newer than Doc's two sperm theory and I don't know if it's his or someone else's. Doesn't matter, we still have something afoot that if Doc had the time to work with, he probably would have already solved.

Bill

[TerriB]

Originally Posted by jbangelfish

...the bird usually has one eye that is not exactly where it is supposed to be...Bill

Holy cow! Thanks for the explanation, Bill. I have a rescued almond bird and wasn't sure if it was something that I need to watch out for. The genetic aspect of almond is very interesting!

[Fbirdie82]

Originally Posted by jbangelfish

I just think it's kind of funny that people look at these wildly marked birds such as Link's bird, mostly black with a large yellow patch on the wing, and accept it is a mosaic because it looks like one. If we don't want to accept that this occurs without the two sperm or two egg occurance, then this bird should not be called "mosaic" either, just a poor quality almond, which is what it would be.

Where is Link anyway? LOL! I've seen this bird in person and he did not look almond to me... I am curious now if he IS almond or from almond breeding at least. Anyway, I started this thread about those birds that are obviously JUST almond with a big patch of KITE or one KITE wing.

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by Fbirdie82

Where is Link anyway? LOL! I've seen this bird in person and he did not look almond to me... I am curious now if he IS almond or from almond breeding at least. Anyway, I started this thread about those birds that are obviously JUST almond with a big patch of KITE or one KITE wing.

The father is almond and the mother is a black Temschburger tumbler (which I probably misspelled). He calls them t burgers, easier.

I'm not certain what he's thrown for young or if we can say that he is a genetic almond. My guess is a yes.

I've seen his kite wing almonds, very cool. He just posted one on another site. I think this bird is throwing them. Check with Link but I think that's what he started doing, mating a couple of these almond mosaic birds together to see what happens. If this is true, then I guess the bird is still a genetic almond but with either something extra or something missing to make these oddities.

Bill

[Fbirdie82]

Originally Posted by jbangelfish

I've seen his kite wing almonds, very cool. He just posted one on another site. I think this bird is throwing them. Check with Link but I think that's what he started doing, mating a couple of these almond mosaic birds together to see what happens. If this is true, then I guess the bird is still a genetic almond but with either something extra or something missing to make these oddities.

Bill

Bill if you are correct and this bird is part Temeschberger, then I would think that he would NOT be using it in his kite-shield project, as those are his Burmingham Rollers. But I could be wrong. He just had one of his kite-shield birds at the White Rose Show and I doubt he would be mixing "t-burgers" with his Burminghams that he is showing. Either way I just talked to him yesterday and I should have asked!!!