It's NOT a Mosaic

[Fbirdie82]

I've seen lots of threads on this forum lately where people claim that their almond is a mosaic. You know the kind I'm talking about... the almonds that have one dark ("kite") wing. It has really bothered me because I have produced three such birds and I know that they are NOT mosaics, just poorly colored almonds, because you can easily recreate it. Well I have spoken with several other fanciers who breed almonds and they all agree. In fact, one member of this forum is trying to breed an almond with a kite shield. He has gotten really very close to it and I am hoping that he will send me a picture or two to share with you guys. Any other thoughts or feelings on this subject? I hope he doesn't mind but I will share a picture of a TRUE mosaic bird off my friend's website...

http://www.martinlofts.com/MyImages/Mosaic1.jpg

[Trees Gray]

That bird reminds me of my lovely girl, Whiskey who passed away recently. I only found out about her being a mosaic near the end of her life.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpo...02&postcount=1

[Fbirdie82]

They do look very much alike. And I was very sad to hear of your loss.

[Trees Gray]

Originally Posted by Fbirdie82

They do look very much alike. And I was very sad to hear of your loss.

Thank you very much, it was quite a loss.

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by Fbirdie82

I've seen lots of threads on this forum lately where people claim that their almond is a mosaic. You know the kind I'm talking about... the almonds that have one dark ("kite") wing. It has really bothered me because I have produced three such birds and I know that they are NOT mosaics, just poorly colored almonds, because you can easily recreate it. Well I have spoken with several other fanciers who breed almonds and they all agree. In fact, one member of this forum is trying to breed an almond with a kite shield. He has gotten really very close to it and I am hoping that he will send me a picture or two to share with you guys. Any other thoughts or feelings on this subject? I hope he doesn't mind but I will share a picture of a TRUE mosaic bird off my friend's website...

http://www.martinlofts.com/MyImages/Mosaic1.jpg

This is Link Martin's bird and he posted it here. What does it come from? Almond and kite, normal almond breeding. I think these should be called almond mosaics, as they are very common in almond breeding. Joe Powers produced over 100 of them. Personally, I still consider this to be at least a "type" of mosaicism, just not the old fashioned two sperm type that Doc Hollander described so many years ago. He was mystified by these almond types as people who showed them to him can attest.

These have been described by some as somatic spots, which I won't argue with. I would like to know what makes them occur, as opposed to the normal break seen in almond. What makes this large patch of color appear where it normally would not, like almond except for the large "somatic" patch? They also appear without almond, although less frequently and some are quite dramatic in appearance.

I have at least a couple of these in my own almonds and I don't have all that many almond birds. Mine are not as dramatic as Link's bird or others that I have seen but they have enough of a patch for me to consider them to be almond mosaic.

I also suggested that people will learn to manipulate this mosaicism to set patterns and have since seen such birds that approach what I meant. It seems that given enough time, people can learn to set just about any pattern, even an odd one such as this.

I do have a figurita hen that I cannot explain any other way but the two sperm (or two egg) idea of mosaicism. She is a spread ash red with both intense and dilute color in her feathers. Odd bird and pretty to boot.

Bill

[george simon]

Hi Bill, I would call that bird a poor almond. Almonds are a tri color bird this bird has the 3 colors but they are poorly dispersed which makes it a poor AlmondGEORGE

[jbangelfish]

That's true, that it is a poor almond. Still, it is a dramatic and interesting occurance that comes with almond breeding.

This summer, I had the pleasure of meeting Bob Mangile and in a discussion about mosaics and almonds, he said that almond IS mosaic. I can't argue that either as it puts things together that do not occur under any other set of genes. They can be dilute with intense, yellow with black, a host of combinations make up what we call almond. It comes from the stipper gene, is very common and widely accepted as "normal".

The thing that interests me is that which makes some of them put the color into large patches instead of the normal break pattern that we see in almonds. These are regarded as "junk" to many almond breeders who see them quite often. I find this kind of humorous, as they are still somewhat rare and are interesting to me. Some have very dramatic colorations such as the one that Link posted here and countless others.

As I mentioned earlier, think what we could do with these odd combinations in patterns that were predictable and attractive. Part of the attraction to mosaic is it's random appearing mismatches but think if we can control it to a point of making patterns that we desire. I find it fascinating.

In many instances, it does follow patterns of it's own, such as shoulder patches. This might be the easiest place to start. Another seems to be chest spots.

Sorry to ramble, I find this very interesting.

Bill

[MaryOfExeter]

I know the kinds of threads you are talking about, and they personally irritate me a bit. Especially when one suggests what it really is, and they simply ignore what we say.

I think to make it easier, call real mosaics, mosiacs, and what are technically just almonds, almonds. I'm assuming it could be hard to tell if an almond "mosaic" is really a genetic 'mistake' or just a poor colored almond. Some of these poor colored birds could actually be real mosaics, but we wouldn't know, unless it was really dramatic. What I mean here, is like if two pure blue bars had one of those mistakes, where two sperm fertilized one egg...or the other theory that two embryos combined...whichever, either way what we would call a mosaic. But it would look like a plain blue bar. Could have went through a lot of genetic mishaps without even knowing!

Anyways, lets just leave it as, almonds are almonds, and mosaics are mosaics. Start calling them almond mosaics and it could be taken different ways, especially to new fanciers.

[george simon]

Hi BILL,It might make a project to see if these can breed good Almonds. But I have never bred Almonds so I am not to sure if two almondscan be bred together I will need to check the book on breeding almonds,could be intresting.GEORGE

[Fbirdie82]

Uhhh... to my knowledge, Link's roller is NOT almond. Just using it as an example of what a true mosaic is.

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by george simon

Hi BILL,It might make a project to see if these can breed good Almonds. But I have never bred Almonds so I am not to sure if two almondscan be bred together I will need to check the book on breeding almonds,could be intresting.GEORGE

You can breed almond to almond but there is a problem called "bladder eye" that sometimes comes with this. Link does breed almond to almond and is usually trouble free. Some almond lines seem safer than others.

I believe that most of these birds breed just like other almonds and the mosaic types don't very often get produced from mosaic birds. They do show up in almond breeder's lofts quite often.

Bill

[Fbirdie82]

Originally Posted by jbangelfish

These have been described by some as somatic spots, which I won't argue with. I would like to know what makes them occur, as opposed to the normal break seen in almond. What makes this large patch of color appear where it normally would not, like almond except for the large "somatic" patch? They also appear without almond, although less frequently and some are quite dramatic in appearance.

Link described how he was breeding for the kite shields on the almond rollers... and I can't remember everything he said. I do know that a bird with this marking has a good chance of passing it on. In fact I think he may have been crossing almond x almond. I have a pair of almond/kite birds that ALWAYS produces at least one squab in a pair with the one kite wing, that *looks* like a mosaic but is just a giant kite fleck.

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by Fbirdie82

Link described how he was breeding for the kite shields on the almond rollers... and I can't remember everything he said. I do know that a bird with this marking has a good chance of passing it on. In fact I think he may have been crossing almond x almond. I have a pair of almond/kite birds that ALWAYS produces at least one squab in a pair with the one kite wing, that *looks* like a mosaic but is just a giant kite fleck.

I'm glad that Link is working on the kite shield, that would be interesting. I've seen some interesting photos from Europe where they are also working on mosaics and patterns.

I would think that he's bred from this mosaic bird by now, I tried to buy it from him last year. Haven't heard what he got from it if he has bred from it but others have been disappointed in their expectations of what they would get from this type of mosaic pigeons.

Interesting that you get so many with one kite wing. What do they produce when you breed from them? Are they kites or almonds?

Bill

[Fbirdie82]

Originally Posted by jbangelfish

I'm glad that Link is working on the kite shield, that would be interesting. I've seen some interesting photos from Europe where they are also working on mosaics and patterns.

I would think that he's bred from this mosaic bird by now, I tried to buy it from him last year. Haven't heard what he got from it if he has bred from it but others have been disappointed in their expectations of what they would get from this type of mosaic pigeons.

Interesting that you get so many with one kite wing. What do they produce when you breed from them? Are they kites or almonds?

Bill

I don't know if the mosaic has produced any squabs... if you are refering to the mosaic that I supplied a picture of, then it will not reproduce itself anyway since it is a true mosaic, unless it happens to pass on some sort of hormone defect that could have caused its parents to produce the mosaic... does that make sense?

My pair that produces the kite wing, have 80% almonds and 20% kites. They are good almonds, too, except of course for the ones that have the kite wing. These offspring also pass on the one kite wing, but it has always been smaller (just shoulder is kite patch).