solid white genetics

[aarongreen123]

hi crew, is there a resident expert on white bird genetics? a year ago i bought a dozen white birds and occasionally i end up with a chick out of them that is red grizzle, and once in a while just a spec of black hear or there. i would just like to understand how this works and if there is any way i can pair birds to improve my chances or solid white offspring.

[george simon]

Well here goes. White has 8 different phenotypes they are as follows. 1. Albino White, 2.Pattern White,3.Migrational White,4.Directional Mutant White,5.Piebald White.6.Reversion to White,7.Recessive White,8.Extreme Dilution White. We must look at the phenotype for Directional mutant white because that is where we will find the answer to your question. This phenotype can be produced from Homozygous GRIZZLES these birds will be white but they carry the GRIZZLE GENE and will give you young that show the grizzle in your case the red grizzle babies that you have raised.There is a book on pigeon genetics by Axel Sell, "Breeding and Inheritance in Pigeons" there are others but I feel that this book is easy for us beginers,it is sold by most of the Pigeon supply houses.GEORGE

[MaryOfExeter]

Do your birds have bull (black) or colored eyes? That also helps in determining which kinds of white your birds have. But obviously at least one of them has the grizzle gene if you're getting grizzles. Two red grizzles put together can make white or almost white babies, but they won't have black eyes usually. White with bull eyes are normally caused by recessive white, which covers up the genetic color underneath.
The best way to get all white babies, is breed white to white.

[aarongreen123]

i believe some of my birds have bull eyes and some don't. i may be oversimplifying this, but, if i breed a solid white with bull eyes to solid white with bull eyes, i should have solid white chicks?

[jbangelfish]

If they are recessive whites (and it sounds like they would be), they will have 100% recessive whites.

Bill

[aarongreen123]

i just caught all 18 of my white birds, 7 of them have an orange eye. to further confuse me, i discovered that one of my thought to be white birds, actually has one tiny little spec of color on its neck, and of course HE has a bull eye...so how the hell does that work? what are the genetic possibilities of a solid white bird with an orange eye, a carrier for who knows what?

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by aarongreen123

i just caught all 18 of my white birds, 7 of them have an orange eye. to further confuse me, i discovered that one of my thought to be white birds, actually has one tiny little spec of color on its neck, and of course HE has a bull eye...so how the hell does that work? what are the genetic possibilities of a solid white bird with an orange eye, a carrier for who knows what?

They just aren't recessive whites. They are normally homozygous ash red grizzles which have been bred to be completely white. You can breed two of them together and you should continue to make white pigeons or breed two bull eyed birds together and make white pigeons that way. Breed a bull eyed white to an orange eyed white and you should be able to tell what color the recessive white (bull eye) is underneath the white as the young birds will show color. One further complication in sorting it out is if the orange eyed white is the cock and happens to be homozygous ash red, all young will be ash red anyway.

A bull eyed white that shows some color is probably the result of baldhead and other pied genes, making an almost white pigeon.

Bill

[aarongreen123]

sooooo...to make sure i'm getting closer to understanding... i have a pair of solid white birds that produced two chicks, one is definitly solid white and the other is red, white, n gray. that means at least one parent is not recessive white but really an ash red right? what percentage of white babies could i get from a pair like this? does the little genetic square we learned in highschool biology apply to this using the RR, Rr, and rr combinations? i'm most likely clueless, set me straight please:-)

[james fillbrook]

it does get comercated becase i had a jet black cock with ball eyes pair with a black and white hen with ball eyes are there babys were pure white with orenge eyes wirld hay

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by aarongreen123

sooooo...to make sure i'm getting closer to understanding... i have a pair of solid white birds that produced two chicks, one is definitly solid white and the other is red, white, n gray. that means at least one parent is not recessive white but really an ash red right? what percentage of white babies could i get from a pair like this? does the little genetic square we learned in highschool biology apply to this using the RR, Rr, and rr combinations? i'm most likely clueless, set me straight please:-)

I never took genetics and I don't use Punnett squares. It's all halves and quarters and so on to me. You can certainly use them if you know how, I just don't bother with them.

If this pair is a combination of one recessive white and one homozygous ash red grizzle type white, it'll depend on what the ash red is carrying. Furthermore, the recessive white could be an ash red underneath the white.
You have already produced one ash red youngster so you know that one of the parents at least is an ash red. If you ever get anything other than ash red or white, it will tell you the color of the recessive white parent.

The homozygous ash red grizzle could be split for recessive white as well. If you get any bull eyed recessive whites from the pair, this will tell you that the orange eyed bird is split for recessive white, even though it is an ash red grizzle white.

If the recessive white is actually an ash red grizzle base, you could produce both recessive whites and ash red grizzle whites.

A pair that has one recessive white and one that is split for recessive white will produce 50% recessive white youngsters and 50% non recessive whites that are split for recessive white.

If they produce orange eyed whites, you will know that you have ash red grizzle in both parents, one should be homozygous and one heterozygous if I have this figured out correctly. If they do produce both types of white young, I would think the number of colored young would be very minimal and here is where the Punnett square would probably come in handy. I'm thinking about 1 in 8 but I could be wrong.

Confused? Me too.

[aarongreen123]

sweet jesus now you've done it

[MaryOfExeter]

Alright, so the parents. Both are solid white. Does one have bull eyes and the other have orange eyes?


Once the white babies get old enough to be sure of the eye color, you can come back and tell us that. Then I think we can walk you through it a piece at a time, so it's not so confusing. The main thing that's important here is that if that white baby has black eyes, then both parents would be carrying recessive white (so IF one parent is a grizzle, having orange eyes, then it's only got one dose of recessive white. they need two doses for it to show up)


I'm a big fan of Punnett squares, but once you start adding up a bunch of things they're pure and split for, it can get crazy

[aarongreen123]

here is a pic of the non white chick