Sooty, dirty, smoky? WHAT?

[MaryOfExeter]

Does look a lot like reduced, and I agree with the grizzle part from what I can see Do you know what the parents looked like?

[Pigeon lower]

Originally Posted by MaryOfExeter

Yes, a blue slate - sums it up pretty well. Slate (smokey) is one thing you can clearly see on the bird. We were just trying to disect its color to see what all actually makes it up

Why make things so difficult for me SHEESH I use to have two slate brothers on my dads old race team when i was like 10. Then when he got out he sold them to other fanciers so i have no clue where they went :S

[NetRider]

No Idea.

I just know that most of my birds start out as stork marked, and then they moult into those white birds with real dark heads.

[MaryOfExeter]

Hmm. I don't think pied has anything to do with the heads being all black. But it might help in making the rest of the bird all white. I've seen some birds who have been bred to have colored heads like that, perhaps these birds have some gene combos making that happen.

[LokotaLoft]

Originally Posted by NetRider

No Idea.

I just know that most of my birds start out as stork marked, and then they moult into those white birds with real dark heads.

netrider what breed of pigeon is this ?

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by NetRider

No Idea.

I just know that most of my birds start out as stork marked, and then they moult into those white birds with real dark heads.

I thought they were homozygous grizzles, which looked exactly the way my old flying tipplers looked. They also were stork marks and many moulted out the same way as your Pakistanis, with only dark heads or dark heads and tails. I raised them over 30 years ago and can't remember exactly how it worked with all of them but the look is nearly identical. None of my tipplers ever stayed dark nor did any of them not appear to be grizzled, if that makes sense.

I also had Russian highfliers back then which were similar as well but they went about things a completely different way. They were not grizzles but were colored in the head and tail, I believe they also were ice factor, making them very light blue. Their marking seemed to be just a type of pied but was very uniform in appearance.

Bill

[NetRider]

Pakistani high fliers.

I posted some pictures in this thread earlier:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/un...ors-38484.html

[LokotaLoft]

Originally Posted by NetRider

Pakistani high fliers

ok that answers alot because I have tipplers and some start out completely white and every year they get darker around the neck .. love the high flyers I do

[NetRider]

I have been doing some reading on the pied factor, and I believe you are right. My birds are homozygous grizzles, because I also have some which are heterozygous grizzles, and often when I mate two of those I end up with normal blue bars.... or well almost. I believe all of my birds carry the smoky, and some also the sooty/dirty gene. So in the cases when I get a non grizzled bird, its usually a dark blue bar.

I recently made a cross between a recessive red tippler, (the blue based one which we discussed in my other thread), and a homozygous grizzle pakistani cock, who only have a few black feathers around his neck, and show no other dark spots on his body. The babies have just started to get their feathers, and so far they seem to be white as well. I will know if they show any dark colors in a few days time. But they have light skin, one has a very light beak, the other one has a darker one.
Werent these supposed to be stork marked? Or rather heterozygous grizzles showing bars, as I doubt the recessive red hen carry grizzle, when the only white I see on her is a single white feather in the tail.

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by NetRider

I have been doing some reading on the pied factor, and I believe you are right. My birds are homozygous grizzles, because I also have some which are heterozygous grizzles, and often when I mate two of those I end up with normal blue bars.... or well almost. I believe all of my birds carry the smoky, and some also the sooty/dirty gene. So in the cases when I get a non grizzled bird, its usually a dark blue bar.

I recently made a cross between a recessive red tippler, (the blue based one which we discussed in my other thread), and a homozygous grizzle pakistani cock, who only have a few black feathers around his neck, and show no other dark spots on his body. The babies have just started to get their feathers, and so far they seem to be white as well. I will know if they show any dark colors in a few days time. But they have light skin, one has a very light beak, the other one has a darker one.
Werent these supposed to be stork marked? Or rather heterozygous grizzles showing bars, as I doubt the recessive red hen carry grizzle, when the only white I see on her is a single white feather in the tail.

In looking through your photos, I did see what appeared to be both homozygous and heterozygous grizzles. Like you say, mate two het grizzles together and get some hets, some homozygous and some non grizzles.

Pied factors come in many different types. There are both recessive pieds and dominant pieds. A bird that has one white feather, likely has some kind of pied factor. Pieds and grizzles tend to build upon each other, combine a couple of them and much more white tends to show up.

It will be interesting to see just how much white your youngster has when feathered out. It should at least be het grizzle and probably some kind of pied as well. These kind of combinations can be highly variable.

Bill

[NetRider]

Hey again Bill,

the youngsters seemed to have gotten some more feathers now. So far it looks like they will be all white, with some dark spots on their flights, and in their tails. In a few days the first feathers should be fully grown and I will get a better idea of what color they might get. One of them also seem to have one dark feather on its back, while all other feathers on the wings, and back seem to be white so far.

So there are dominant pieds hmm. Could it be that my recessive red is pied due to that one white feather in the tail, but the cock seem to have other dominant pied genes which is turning the babies white too?

What happens if you have grizzle and recessive red together, you should get so called mottles right? So in that case there is no chance of my recessive red carrying grizzle.

One more thing. The cock has dark beak, while the hen has completely light beak.

Here is a picture of the cock, note the light darkening on its tail, that is the light darkening I see in the babies too, so the whole feather aint black in the babies either.

[NetRider]

I took a few pictures of the babies today:

[jbangelfish]

They look very much like the father. Funny thing is, he probably did not look that way as a baby but showed alot more color, if he is a typical homozygous grizzle.

The only thing that I can think of is that this is what is happening between a type of pied and grizzle together. As I said earlier, these things tend to build on each other and bring more white than would be expected. It's about all I can come up with.

Bill

[NetRider]

No actually their father was just as light as them as a young bird. He was not a typical grizzle with dark flights which molted to more whites. His story is different, as he started out as a 99% pure white bird, and then later on got the dark spots on his neck. The darker feather he has in his tail he got after his second molt, before that his tail was pure white.

btw notice how one of the babies, the one with the light beak seem to have light grey feathers on his body near the tail. So I believe their mother is a blue based recessive red, but is not carrying the spread factor.

I couldnt find much info on the pied genes online, would be interesting to learn more and see how they work.

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by NetRider

No actually their father was just as light as them as a young bird. He was not a typical grizzle with dark flights which molted to more whites. His story is different, as he started out as a 99% pure white bird, and then later on got the dark spots on his neck. The darker feather he has in his tail he got after his second molt, before that his tail was pure white.

btw notice how one of the babies, the one with the light beak seem to have light grey feathers on his body near the tail. So I believe their mother is a blue based recessive red, but is not carrying the spread factor.

I couldnt find much info on the pied genes online, would be interesting to learn more and see how they work.

Hey NetRider

Let me see if I can find anything out about this.

I have also had pieds and grizzles that don't act as normal. Some of these have come from birds that looked nothing like the young and showed no pied or grizzle, yet they have young that look to have one or the other or both.

I've had near white birds from various sources, some of them have been pure white and moulted in color later. One was a spread ash red that began as white, another is a dominant opal, almond, he also began as pure white.

Most, if not all of the homozygous grizzles that I have raised, have began as almost self colored and moulted to stork mark or near white in their first moults, sometimes getting whiter yet in consecutive moults.

Bill