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NetRider NetRider is offline
Posted 28th October 2009, 04:05 PM
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Oslo, Norway
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Sooty, dirty, smoky? WHAT?


Hey all,

I have the following bird in my loft, and in order to find out what kind of hen I should mate him to in order to produce more of this color, I am trying to figure out what makes his color get as dark as it looks.

I know he is a blue bar, but I dont know what genes are modifying the color.

Attached is the pic.


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File Type: jpg user112_pic2944_1256763767.jpg (29.5 KB, 261 views)
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NetRider NetRider is offline
Posted 28th October 2009, 04:10 PM
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 130
I believe I found the answer to my question.

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/smokey.html the following article says:
"Like the other two genes, Smoky will darken the underwing coverts. However, it will also produce a lighter skin color and a light to Ivory colored beak. Sooty and Dirty will not have these lightened beaks, eye ceres nor white skins as does Smoky. In other words, while Smoky will darken the base color it also tends to lighten both the skin and beak color."

so I guess this is a smoky, now the next part of the question. How can I breed more of these?
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jbangelfish jbangelfish is offline
Posted 28th October 2009, 04:42 PM
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Roscoe IL
Posts: 1,290

It does look like smoky


But it also looks to have at least another darkening factor, maybe sooty. The bars are somewhat widened and blurred as smoky will do but the beak is too dark for a homozygous smoky, unless it may have another darkener or two. The color is also a little darker than most that would only have smoky.

The simplest way to be sure of smoky on a blue pigeon is to look at the albescent strip. If it is white, the bird is either non smoky or only het smoky. If the strip is blue, the bird is smoky.

If you would like to make more of these, just mate it to any blue bar and mate a young bird back from that mating. This is the long road, if you have another similar bird, it will be quicker.

Bill
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NetRider NetRider is offline
Posted 28th October 2009, 04:54 PM
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 130
He does not have a white albescent strip.

I have a blue bar hen which also has a blue strip. A mating of these, should at least give me 50% like his type shouldnt it ?

Attached is one more picture.
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File Type: jpg user112_pic2943_1256763767.jpg (31.5 KB, 253 views)

Last edited by NetRider; 28th October 2009 at 04:57 PM.
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MaryOfExeter MaryOfExeter is offline
Posted 28th October 2009, 05:36 PM
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Smokey and dirty...
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rfboyer rfboyer is offline
Posted 28th October 2009, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbangelfish View Post
The simplest way to be sure of smoky on a blue pigeon is to look at the albescent strip. If it is white, the bird is either non smoky or only het smoky. If the strip is blue, the bird is smoky.
Newbie question... What part of the pigeon is the albescent strip?
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george simon george simon is offline
Posted 28th October 2009, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfboyer View Post
Newbie question... What part of the pigeon is the albescent strip?
rfboyer, Look at the tail you will see that the two out side feathers have a thin white strip that is the albecent strip.GEORGE
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rfboyer rfboyer is offline
Posted 28th October 2009, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by george simon View Post
rfboyer, Look at the tail you will see that the two out side feathers have a thin white strip that is the albecent strip.GEORGE
Thanks George! I'd noticed that some of those are whiter than others... but I've only been observing pigeons "up close and personal" since moulting has started, and didn't know if the whiteness of the tail edges was permanent or a passing state in the process, since they don't all seem to have it.

These critters are complicated!
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jbangelfish jbangelfish is offline
Posted 29th October 2009, 08:46 AM
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You'll get smoky anyway


Quote:
Originally Posted by NetRider View Post
He does not have a white albescent strip.

I have a blue bar hen which also has a blue strip. A mating of these, should at least give me 50% like his type shouldnt it ?

Attached is one more picture.
Two smoky birds together will make all smoky young. Some breeds like Oriental rollers and Arabian trumpeters are all smoky, keeping the desired light beaks.

The other factors, whether dirty or sooty or both will depend on what the other bird has. Bottom line, I'd say yes, you should at least get some like the father. Not knowing for sure if he is homozygous for dirty or sooty, makes it difficult to say for certain.

Purely a guess but from his appearance, I think he may be het for sooty and het for dirty. In either case, you should get at least some that are like him.

Bill
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george simon george simon is offline
Posted 29th October 2009, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfboyer View Post
Thanks George! I'd noticed that some of those are whiter than others... but I've only been observing pigeons "up close and personal" since moulting has started, and didn't know if the whiteness of the tail edges was permanent or a passing state in the process, since they don't all seem to have it.

These critters are complicated!
Hi ROBIN, Now you know that the birds that do have the ALBESCENT STRIP,carry the gene for smoky.Keep asking questions we will try to give you answers. GEORGE
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NetRider NetRider is offline
Posted 29th October 2009, 11:27 AM
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Oslo, Norway
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Thanks for the help

Here is another bird. Would this be reduced ?
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jbangelfish jbangelfish is offline
Posted 29th October 2009, 02:31 PM
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It might be


Looks at least similar to reduced birds. Is this ash red base color? I've never had an ash red reduced and can only guess that they might look this way.

Some homozygous indigo birds can also be light like this. They will usually get very dark in the face. This bird looks to be young, is it? Reduced birds have a tendency to change quite a bit in the first moult, usually showing more definition of color separation after, such as black/blue etc., getting the lacing that many call blue lace in reduced blacks.

Bill
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NetRider NetRider is offline
Posted 29th October 2009, 03:22 PM
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Location: Oslo, Norway
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Its blue based. Grizzle, and pied I guess. In most of the other birds the grizzle turn them white, and the piebald gene turn their heads and necks black.

This is exactly the same, but all the black feathers are turned into grey/silver, so my guess was reduced.

See my other thread:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/un...ors-38484.html

Oh and, its not my bird so I am unsure about its age. I know a fancier who has these birds, but he pretty much knows nothing about genetics, so no use in asking him what modifiers give them their looks.

It does kinda resemble the bird on the following page:
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/reducedblu.html

Last edited by NetRider; 29th October 2009 at 03:35 PM.
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Pigeon lower Pigeon lower is offline
Posted 29th October 2009, 04:48 PM
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For the first bird couldnt u call it a slate ..?
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MaryOfExeter MaryOfExeter is offline
Posted 29th October 2009, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigeon lower View Post
For the first bird couldnt u call it a slate ..?
Yes, a blue slate - sums it up pretty well. Slate (smokey) is one thing you can clearly see on the bird. We were just trying to disect its color to see what all actually makes it up
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