Woodie With Injuries In Both Shoulders

[Pidgey]

In birds, most pus starts out very thick--that's what the yellow cheesy stuff in canker actually is. Some of that picture shows an orange color under the skin indicating such debris but, curiously, it's off to the side of the actual lumps. When they get an overproduction of synovial fluid in the "capsule" (essentially the sac that keeps the joint-lubricating, or "synovial", fluid) of the joint swelling like this can occur and make the "Paratyphoid boils" that we often see. Yes, other things can cause the visible symptoms that you're seeing and other bacteria besides Salmonellae can do it, too.

Pidgey

[amyable]

Hi,

Do you think there's a possibility that this could be Paratyphoid? How does that develope? I hadn't thought of that as he has been in isolation since September 4th.
I haven't a clue, I just assumed that that was caught from contact with another infected bird.
I'm hoping the vet is right but I suppose he is in the same boat as anyone here and is only going by the pictures aswell.

I have an appointment for Tuesday morning with the vet. The bird seems ok still today bit the swelling is the same.
I completed a course of Noroclav today and will wait and see how the homeopathic meds react between now and Tuesday.


Janet

[Feefo]

Hi Janet,

I don't think that is paratyphoid, as it is the synovial fluid that causes the swelling it would be on the joint and softer.

Cynthia

[Pidgey]

Couldn't tell ya'. The original pictures could show either wounds or severely burst boils from infections. I'd probably favor something other than Paratyphoid, though. Even Staphs and streps can do it.

Pidgey

[corvid]

just checking in to see how the PJ is doing.Lots of kissis for PJ , hugs for ya Janet.

Nell

[amyable]

Hi Nell,

Sorry not been around for the last two days.
Just counting down until I see the vets Tuesday.
I'm dreading the visit actually as the swellings are bigger and the original wound is under pressure from the lumps which are making it open, together with a new lump.
I'm not convinced the vet will want to do anything now.
I will beg though, he's a real fighter, very strong. Wish him luck.

Janet

[Feefo]

Hi Janet,

I know how you feel, some pigeons look so bad that you hardly dare take them to the vet because of the eutanasia aspect. But sometimes things look a lot worse than they are.

The vet can't force you to have him euthanased, I am not even certain that he can refuse treatment.

If he goes down this road, ask everything you can about what the lumps are, what the treatment would be if it was carried out, the prognosis, etc and if you conclude that the reasons for euthanasia are that the pigeon will be unreleasable, or that say that it is such a drastic step that you need to think it over and come back here to discuss it with Pidgey and Co...I know that whatever the this is is not within my field of knowledge, but remember that he has a permanent home here and that some woodies adapt to captivity very well and have quality of life even with the severest injuries as Maria and Marchy have demonstrated.

Cynthia

[amyable]

Hi Cynthia,

Thanks for those words of reassurance, I am not happy about this visit as I know that the bird cannot fly but I didn't tell him that. Could be he would not be bothered if he knew.
If there's the suggestion that he should just be put to sleep, I will bring him home first to give me some thinking time.
Colin Walker is away at present, so they said they would get back to me, so not able to get another opinion before I go tomorrow.

I have seen no change at all except for the lumps slightly enlarging daily. I have tried the homeopathy meds that were suggested for abcess swellings, ending up with Merc Sol, but still no change.
I am giving him the Arnica200 and Calendula30 that Maria recommended to get him ready should he be having these lumps lanced, that will help with the bleeding aspect.
Bless him, he still fought to get away from me this morning so he could go and sit on his perch and watch himself in the bathroom tiles. ( He thinks he's got a mate there!). Bright as a button.
I'll do my best to get him treatment.

Janet

[Feefo]

Hi Janet,

It doesn't sound as if the lumps and the wound are bothering him too much, hopefully the vet will see this.

Cynthia

[taralotti]

Hi Jannet

I hope everything goes well for your woodie tomorrow. I agree with Cynthia. We must always do our best to give them a chance of recovery. I do not think vets share the same point of view. One word of advice from my personal experience last year. Do not let the bird out of your sight even for a single second. If you can join the vet in the room would be ideal. I DO NOT TRUST them. They deceived me last year with Garcia and put him down by lying to me because I was naive to let him out of my sight for 5 minutes!! Garcia had no broken wings, bleeding or broken legs like March. He had lost his tail and had some small wound underneath his body. He had responded well for the first day under my care and was hundred of times better than March!!
I have written a lenghty complain letter to the practice and I did not receive a reply even after a year. I complainted about this case to the RCVS (Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons) and basically they found nothing wrong with the practice! I would like to share with everybody, one interesting paragraph from the RCVS letter, which basically shows that the vets have the last word and not us (the cruel, inhumane carers!):

"I would also draw your attention to the Aniaml Welfare Act 2006 which provides that failure to destroy an animal to prevent further suffering may be an offence.The duty to destroy falls most heavily on the veterinary surgeon, who has the skill and training to make the correct assessment. The veterinary surgeon in such instances acts as agent of necessity and can make a decision as to whether humane destruction is correct option or not."
So, I do not know why Cynthia believes that the vet can not impose euthanasia but this is not what the RCVS claims!! I would love to have your legal argument, Cynthia, for future defence of these helpless beings, if I ever decide to visit any of those butchering gangsters.

Please, please, BE VIGILANT AT ALL TIMES, and make sure that he operates and does not claim that he will and put him down instead, claiming he did not make it through the operation! I was told over the phone by a local vet when I called about March that they never operate on birds as they supposely do not do well with the anaesthetics!!

I wish you and your woodie the BEST OF LUCK and may all Love and Light of the Universe assist him tomorrow.

Lots of Love to both of you

Maria, March & Family

[amyable]

Hi Maria,

I will heed your words but that paragraph really worries me. Up to now when I have seen this vet I have always been in the room to hold the bird, but I don't think it would be the same if they are likely to do a procedure on him.

This Woodie in particular is so fiesty and very hard to hold. I just hope I can get a good grip of him before I take him out of the box and so the vet will have the confidence to let me stay if I can be seen to handle him ok. The ferals are always so quiet when we've been.

If they decide to operate I will have no choice but to let them take him, but then if he doesn't make it, I will never really know.
I promise I will do my best for him.

Thanks for your best wishes,

Janet

ps. hope Marchy is coming on ok still. Love to you both too.

[Feefo]

Garcia had no broken wings, bleeding or broken legs like March. He had lost his tail and had some small wound underneath his body. He had responded well for the first day under my care and was hundred of times better than March!!

Now that is strange...my veterinary surgery (I assume it was a receptionist or nursing assistant) telephoned me to say that they had been handed a pigeon with no tail feathers and wanted to know what the prognosis was before deciding whether to send him to me for rehabilitation or...and at another surgery that I went to in my early rescue days with a pigeon with wing and tail feathers missing the vet was not aware of whether they would grow back before the annual moult. It was from that experience that I learnt that it only takes six weeks for the feathers to grow back completely. I suppose there are just things that we know through practical experience that we assume better trained people must know.

John and I took an injured pigeon into a veterinary surgery (not my current vet) because it appeared to have been mawled buy something and we wanted antibiotics. The vet handed the pigeon over to a receptionist and said "Do what you always do with these". I don't think eiter of us had ever moved so fast as we did then, grabbing the pigeon back to safety. What sickens me about that particular surgery is that it is in the city centre and would be the first place people wopuld think of when they found a sick or injured bird. It was at that surgery that one vet told me that she did not believe in trying to save the life of an animal other people were trying to kill. I wonder what makes people with so little compassion choose to be vets?

Cynthia

[amyable]

The phrase that concerned me a bit that this vet has used twice before is 'you have to decide how far to go with these'.

I know with Tweet I said that I was hoping to keep her as a pet, he was quite ok with that and treated her well. His assistant who I saw with Charlie, (the feral with the wound in his chest), said that he looked well apart from the wound, so was willing 'to give him a chance'.

The difference I found with this vet as opposed to my dog's vet where they just ask you to leave the bird with them is that I have to register the bird as a pet and pay, but that I hope gives me some say in what the outcome is.

I know at my own vets I had a really hard time getting the receptionist to agree to let me register one bird as a pet so I could at least see the vet. She was like the proverbial 'doctor's receptionist', and SHE was the one who would decide if I could see the vet, not me. :eek She quite enjoyed telling me that most of the pigeons that come in are PTS automatically if injured.
That's why I won't go there with birds.

It worries me also that at the 'sanctuary' a lot of the birds that come in there are from a local vets. Last week, I think I told Cynthia this story, a sea bird was in an enclosure and the lads couldn't understand why it wasn't eating the salmon they had put in for it. I went and had a look and it was plain to see the bird was blind. If someone had taken the trouble to pick it up and just look at it's eyes.
A vet had sent it to them for rehabilitation.
I suggested they took it back to the vets, I hope they did.

Janet

[taralotti]

I have no doubt Jannet that you will do your best for your woodie.
I understand exactly your points.

I am glad for that pigeon, Cynthia and all those that due to your dedication and persistence are still well and enjoy their life and your affection.I have the answer to your last question. It is very simple. MONEY!!
Did you know that the majority of those following veterinary surgery in the UK come from farming families? Not quite the kind of people with compassion for living beings, which they treat as commodity, objects and food.Animal blood has paid for their studies and they have no ethical reservation to spare it during their career!! In fact, I have heard that they can earn more money than doctors and that it is more difficult to enter the Veterinary College that Medical School.

March is on lower homoeopathic potencies mainly 30 now, as there are no open wounds or infections and his case is more on a chronic time scale from now on. Time will tell how much mobility he will gain. He seems alert (he was a bit quiet yesterday but I think I opened his cabin door for long hours to let light in and it was cold. The temperature dropped from 20 C to 10 C in a short time and he felt it, making him unhappy.I realized that a stable temperature is very important for a sick animal and I keep the heating on at all times, aiming to maintain at least 20 C. I gave him my liquid of probiotics, systemajuv, echinacea, minerals, vitamins and was fine a few hours later.)

I stopped Gelsemium 200 and changed to Angustura vera 30 this evening.
I will see his reaction and decide.

Feathers are growing longer nicely and he walks with a limp on the right side, the side that took the car impact.That leg looks as if pooled out of place and he struggles more with this leg.

I am busy with more carpentry in the aviary. Hopefully, I will be ready in good time for Milkwood. I hope she is doing better.

Have a nice evening!

Maria

[corvid]

these stories are so disturbing and yet so realistic unfortunatly.Janet try to be as strong as one can on the position, that you keeping the bird, no matter , what the outcome will be.Also , if You can , without them checking out, let them understand, that You do have arraignments with some kind of Wild Life sanctuary later on for the bird.I dont know , if that would be the best "story", but I know , that they are so afraid of loosing their licences, taking in a protected species from the public, that they just avoid it at any cost. The same vet and his/her assistant would not say a word , if you would have a license to care for a wild life. They have to cover their "butt ons" , forget the first humane response there should be - try to save a life.
Best wishes for You both. Nell