Adenovirus

[pdpbison]

Hi everyone,



I am facing what might be an Adenovirus outbreak here among several of my my various house Birds and pre-release ones.


I have done a bunch of 'googles' finding nothing in the way of any practical information, or any diagnostic tips based on impirical observations of poops and symptoms and so on.


If anyone knows anything about this Virus, or similar symptom Viruses which could be mistaken for it, or knows of any practical literature about it, or, has had any experience with it, please let me know..?



Thanks,

Phil
Las Vegas

[stach_n_flash]

"I've found empirically that the antibiotic Doxycycline at 300 mg per 4 liters of water was effective in the year 2001 at the Alberta Classic Derby but it alone was insufficient in 2002. Adding 1 teaspoon Ridzol-S and 300 mg Doxycycline to 4 liters of water is presently ( July 2002 ) very effective."

I got the information from the website below. Hope it helps


http://www.albertaclassic.net/adenovirus.php



Slightly old. Possibly true?

[Margarret]

Phil,
The Flying Vet's Pigeon Health Management by Colin Walker speaks a bit about the virus. According to him there was an outbreak in Belgium in '92 characterized by sudden death of pigeons of all ages. None of the sick birds survived more than 48 hours. It started in a group of young birds and then spread to all ages.The birds had fluid yellow diarrhea and vomiting. The loss in each loft was about 30%. Apparently only immunosuppresed birds were succeptable to the disease, but researchers were not able to assess why the immunosuppression occurred. Birds that were in close contact with sick birds often remained well. There are two types of the virus. Type I mainly affects young pigeons and involves the digestive tract causing diarrhea and vomiting. E coli can complicate this form of the disease. Many of these birds recover. Type 2 involves the liver with death usually occurring in 24 hours. This was the form of the disease in '92 and lastedAdeno virus was a disease of chickens that was thought to have mutated to allow it to adapt to pigeons. The type 2 does not respond to antibiotics. The type 1 with the combined e. coli does well with antibiotics. Secondary infections especially wet canker and coccidia were the most dangerous opportunistic diseases in birds infected by the virus and supportive treatment was necessary till the birds could clear the virus. Symptoms of type I were watery diarrhea, vomiting and occasionally respiratory involvement.

Hope this helps.
Margarret

[feralpigeon]

Good post Margaret, I wondered if Phil had seen the yellow droppings or vomiting? Also, in terms of secondary infections, it probably is a good idea
to do as you have done and treat for secondary bacterial infection, Phil. It can only 'lighten' their load.

fp

[Margarret]

From Marx's A Veterinary Guide to Pigeon Health.
Most common symptons are green slimy diarrhea, fluid filling the crop, vomiting , increased thirst nd increased urine production. The disease tends to drag on for two to three weks. Once they are infected whether or not they show symptoms they shed the virus for months, even after they have recovered. If they recover they go on to be immune adults. Primarly seen in young birds. Most cases occur during the warmer months. Very contagious but usually only 5-10% of the flock will show symptoms. There is no specific treatment for it. Treating secondary infections lowers the death rate.

From what I have read so far, it seems that your only option to manage this outbreak is to not introduce any new birds or release any for at least a couple of months. Even longer would be better. Supportive treatment for those who show symptoms, especially for e. coli with antibiotics and the non symptomatic with probiotics.

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by stach_n_flash

"I've found empirically that the antibiotic Doxycycline at 300 mg per 4 liters of water was effective in the year 2001 at the Alberta Classic Derby but it alone was insufficient in 2002. Adding 1 teaspoon Ridzol-S and 300 mg Doxycycline to 4 liters of water is presently ( July 2002 ) very effective."

I got the information from the website below. Hope it helps


http://www.albertaclassic.net/adenovirus.php



Slightly old. Possibly true?

Thanks stash_n_flash,



Darn, I still do not have any Doxycycline, and have been wanting to get some for a long time...I could on-line order some tonight or call someone tomorrow, for Next Day Air, maybe be here Wednesday anyway...


Sounds like a good regimen, and I do accept that what seemed good for any given Viris one year, can change from year to year or region to region as the Viris itself adapts and changes...so, who knows...

I do not have any definitive diagnosis as of yet anyway.


But...

No one has shown any Vomiting...

Yellow Urates have been seen variously, in normal enough poops, and or with heavy Bile once no fecal matter is passing any more...

So, in some of the of 'my' Pigeons, the illness seems to be shutting down their digestive process or Intestines or something, since some died with half full or better Crops which did not empty over two or three days, even though I adminstered Nystatin daily once I saw no poops being made...

Or the poops there were, once the Pigeon is far into the symptoms/look of it, the poops were only dark bile and some white urates, or in some, Bile and pale yellow urates...


Thanks so much...


Phil
Las Vegas

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by Margarret

Phil,
The Flying Vet's Pigeon Health Management by Colin Walker speaks a bit about the virus. According to him there was an outbreak in Belgium in '92 characterized by sudden death of pigeons of all ages. None of the sick birds survived more than 48 hours. It started in a group of young birds and then spread to all ages.The birds had fluid yellow diarrhea and vomiting. The loss in each loft was about 30%. Apparently only immunosuppresed birds were succeptable to the disease, but researchers were not able to assess why the immunosuppression occurred. Birds that were in close contact with sick birds often remained well. There are two types of the virus. Type I mainly affects young pigeons and involves the digestive tract causing diarrhea and vomiting. E coli can complicate this form of the disease. Many of these birds recover. Type 2 involves the liver with death usually occurring in 24 hours. This was the form of the disease in '92 and lastedAdeno virus was a disease of chickens that was thought to have mutated to allow it to adapt to pigeons. The type 2 does not respond to antibiotics. The type 1 with the combined e. coli does well with antibiotics. Secondary infections especially wet canker and coccidia were the most dangerous opportunistic diseases in birds infected by the virus and supportive treatment was necessary till the birds could clear the virus. Symptoms of type I were watery diarrhea, vomiting and occasionally respiratory involvement.

Hope this helps.
Margarret

Thanks Margerret,


Yeeeeeeesh...


Well, whatever this is, it is not that fast.


Onset of observable ( to me anyway) symptoms to dieing, seemed to have been about two and a half to three days give or take...some had lingered in mid phase and are still hanging on, others went steadily down...in fact, the symptoms seem to have changed somewhat, where, the first few who died each slowly proceeded through a progression of postures where the mid point was them standing with their neck out fully horizontal, Beak against the floor, Eyes open, and spending a day like that, wings against the floor but close to their Body...to slowly sink more to where they could not stand and had to be propped up...and liquid comeong out of their mouths if their Head was not kept elevated.

The first three were like that, and the last three did not do that, but did sort of 'sink' from a withdrawn but unremarkable standing position, to laying down limply...and had no fluids comeing out if their Head were low...


No one has thrown up anytime in recent memory, or maybe one time someone did a week ago or so, but they do that sometimes anyway...

And I have presnetly four who are in mid phase symptoms - ie weak, standing Eyes half closed, loosing weight...Bile and some Urate ( whether White or Yellow) for poops...these four started eating this afternoon, after two or three days of fasting...were eating enthusiastically with very wobbley Head motions, but were really interested in eating so I let them eat...small whole Seeds, 'Canary' Seed...

I had been afraid to tube-feed them for fear of a Static Crop or other rejection or problem...but was thinking to get on with doing so around now if nothing had changed...so, I dunno...maybe I will tube feed these four some thin formula anyway sometime before I hit the hay.

None of the prior ones would eat or show any inetrest whatever, and two at least of the initial ones had static Crops, semi full...when they perished.



Anyway...this thing seems to have been shifting quickly in the specific symptoms it makes...



Phil
Las Vegas

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by feralpigeon

Good post Margaret, I wondered if Phil had seen the yellow droppings or vomiting? Also, in terms of secondary infections, it probably is a good idea
to do as you have done and treat for secondary bacterial infection, Phil. It can only 'lighten' their load.

fp

Hi fp,


Thank you...makes sense...


I will elaborate shortly on what I have done, or am doing...


Best wishes...


Phil
Las Vegas

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by Margarret

From Marx's A Veterinary Guide to Pigeon Health.
Most common symptons are green slimy diarrhea, fluid filling the crop, vomiting , increased thirst nd increased urine production. The disease tends to drag on for two to three weks. Once they are infected whether or not they show symptoms they shed the virus for months, even after they have recovered. If they recover they go on to be immune adults. Primarly seen in young birds. Most cases occur during the warmer months. Very contagious but usually only 5-10% of the flock will show symptoms. There is no specific treatment for it. Treating secondary infections lowers the death rate.

From what I have read so far, it seems that your only option to manage this outbreak is to not introduce any new birds or release any for at least a couple of months. Even longer would be better. Supportive treatment for those who show symptoms, especially for e. coli with antibiotics and the non symptomatic with probiotics.

Hi Margarret,



Thank you very much, makes sense to me.


I wonder how similar or different 'Circovirus' is, or, some other ones whose names I can not think of just now...


No matter, the overall outline of whaty one would so, are likely pretty similar.


I hope that in a Week, the results of the Lad Tests will be in and I may find out what the definitive analysis is.


Phil
Las Vegas

[pdpbison]

Okay...


What I have done, is this -


I got all free rovers and free fliers who drink form the Common Waterers, onto a 'Water' mixture which is 7/8ths Water, and, 1/8th STRONG Herb Tea, made from four hours or so hot ( not boiling ) Steeping of powders representing Berberry, Goldenseal, Echinechea, these being two heaping Teaspoons each to make one full Quart...and, one heaping Teaspoon each thereabouts of Kava-Kava, Slippery Elm Bark, Ginger, and, Licorice powders...with Two fairly full Teaspoons of a four Herb mix not having any of the preceeding ones to it, but a mix which is supposed to be really good for the Brain and Nervious System and Immune System generally and I forgot or never knew anyway, what is in it.


I used to make such Teas for myself, and sometimes for Birds in times past too, and as for me, I would say they always helped very much if I had a 'flu or food poisoning or some unknown really 'sick' thing going on.


To this I added maybe fourty drops of concentrated Grapefruit Extract liquid...


And, I added such "Teramycin" aka "Oxytetricycline" as to provide about 800 mG per day, per Bird, or maybe it was per Kilo, I can't remember now ( I kept notes) more or less, as I calculated in terms of how much they all drank in 24 hours. Which was usually Two Gallons roughly...but it varys...

I made three Gallons worth which by mid day today, were all dry.


Everyone really likes the Tea, and even is pleased to drink it much stronger when offered.


Too, yesterday I started giving various ones ( anyone with symptoms, and all the Babys or Youngster ones who are pre-fledglings ) small Tablets of "Dimethylglycine"...and, some Birds have been recieving daily Metronidazole also...but I have no way to do flock treatment with these last two.


The same Tea, only Stronger, I have been useing to mix the formula for the youngsters, and they really like the Tea also, as for drinking plain, as well as in the formula.

A sweet moment - I was introducing the full strength Tea to some of the ones in the Office here who were waiting for me to get some Waterers filled up and brought in.

I had a small low cup of the Tea, and I set it down indicating to them it was theirs to drink.

They looked at it, no one would touch it. It was very dark.

I picked it up, took a sip, made a face to say it was "Good" and set it down.

One larger Pigeon named 'Big Friend' walked over, very gently peck-touched the back of my hand which I still had on the Cup, and indicated he wanted to try it.

He took a tiny sip, then stood back to think about it. His mate did likewise, so they were both standing there thinking about it, ( they looked 'pleased' if pensive...) and every one else was watching them.

I said "This might help everyone with this illness-thing we have going on, and it does taste good, wouldn't you say?" and I took another ( pretend sip this time) and set it back down, and he did a tentative sip then drank like a Horse, as his mate did likewise, so I had to refill several times as various ones stepped up and had their first taste of it at full strength, and everyone seemed to find it agreeable.




It seemed to me, that not long after I started this medicated Tea-Water, whether co-incidentally as effect, or co-incidentally with no relation...the symptoms shifted from what they first were, to what they have been since.


Thats all I can think of for the moment, and I best get back to some dutys for a little while now.

My Vet today suggested I use 'Cipro' for anyone showing symptoms, and I will start adminstering their doses in a little while, since I forgot to do it earlier when I got home...


Is there any reason why I should not have some of them on Cipro AND Oxytetricycline concurrently ?




Thank you so much everyone for the informaiton and insight you have been offering..!


Love,


Phil
Las Vegas

[Margarret]

I checked the PDR. There is no contraindications listed for Cipro with tetracycline. It should be safe to give together.

M.

[Margarret]

I looked up circo virus. It attacks the immune cells. The clinical profile is somewhat different than what you are seeing. Birds usually expire from secondary infection. It doesn't have the extreme GI symptoms that adenovirus has. The only other viruses I could find are the already known ones-PMV, Herpes, Respiratory viruses etc.
M.

[Maggie-NC]

Phil, personally, I would eliminate any of the herbal mixtures and go with the staight meds right now. According to your post, you've lost six already? This is a really bad disease you're fighting and to be perfectly honest I have only had one pigeon who exhibited the lying down and stretching their neck out like you describe and it had canker but I don't think that is what you're dealing with.

How is your cockatiel doing? Any danger of her picking up anything?

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by Margarret

I checked the PDR. There is no contraindications listed for Cipro with tetracycline. It should be safe to give together.

M.

Thanks Margaret...


The Oxytetricycline is all I have to choose from as for bulk Water Soluable Meds.

Two hour drive all tolled to get to the Farm Store to review what other packet-bulk Meds they would have...I could call and ask, but they would be annoyed and likely not be thorough as for what they have there...so, hmmmm...maybe drive over later sometime just to look.

I did mis-mention - in this or my other thread - the Oxytetriccline dose I was useing and I will ammend the mention later.

I aimed for 800 mG to the Gallon...not per kilo of patient per day...memory is shot lately.


Oye, slept like a Log, from 4:30 a.m. to 1:30 pm., feeling a little groggy still...


But keenly interested in thinking about all this more as I wake up or once I am more awake...


Coffee...!


Lol...

Just made some, taking my first sips...and I made it too weak..yuck...


Easy to make more...

Phil
l v

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by Margarret

I looked up circo virus. It attacks the immune cells. The clinical profile is somewhat different than what you are seeing. Birds usually expire from secondary infection. It doesn't have the extreme GI symptoms that adenovirus has. The only other viruses I could find are the already known ones-PMV, Herpes, Respiratory viruses etc.
M.

Hi Margarret,



Thank you...very much...


Phil
l v