Beak problem...HELP PLEASE!!!

[kajupakhi]

Hi,

I have a 7 year old pigeon, Last year his upper beak started growing abnormally and then
breaking. But we were able to solve the problem with proper medication as prescribed
by the doctor.

But these days I am noticing that the front part of his lower beak(inside his mouth)
where the little curve that holds their tongue should be, is filled up
with some hard substance. As a result he
is having a hard time eating. He is taking FOR EVER to hold the seeds with the tip of his beak
and an even harder time pulling the seeds with his tongue to swallow down his throat. Most of the
time the seeds are either coming out on their own from his mouth because of his inablity to swallow
else they are getting stuck somewhere inside his lower or upper beak and then he has to throw them out
on his own.
Also, he is unable to close his mouth completely, there seems to be a hollow between
the front part of his upper and lower beak even when he is closing his mouth.

I took him to the doctor 2 days ago and he said that this problem is occuring because he is getting old and so his lower
beak and tongue areas are loosing its slippery nature, so the food particles are constantly being deposited in the curve
of his lower beak.The doctor even scrapped and took out as much of these depositions as he could. He even gave a medicine
to put in his lower beak to make it more slippery.

However, the problem seems to have become worse since then. HE CAN HARDLY EAT NOW!! infact over the last 2 days he lost a
lot of weight and today I had to feed him,coz the poor fellow could hardly help himself.

I am here for only 2 weeks, and I am getting REALLY WORRIED...if anyone has had similar experiences or has any suggestion,
please let me know.Inspite of his beak problem, he seems active and healthy. However, I am worried that if he is unable
to eat, then he will grow weak and die.

Thanks

KAjupakhi

[Pidgey]

Was Trichomoniasis (common name: Canker) ever discussed? Is this deposited stuff yellowish like cheddar cheese?

Pidgey

[kajupakhi]

Hi Pidgy,

Thanks for your reply, no it does not seem like canker...I looked carefully.
The deposition seems more white than yellow and solid and hard...not soft/cheesy.

Let me know what you think

[Pidgey]

Well, I think I'd look at it under a microscope if it were me. Out on the tip, it might tend to dry up and give that appearance. If I was shooting blind like that, I'd probably get the bird started on an anti-protozoal like Metronidazole, Ronidazole, Secnidazole or one of the other ones if possible. I'd do that while I was in the process of trying to figure out what else it could be.

You see, canker (as well as other things) that form plaques are essentially oozing pus that in birds is thicker than the stuff that we make. But it still dries down.

Pidgey

[kajupakhi]

Hi Pidgy,

Thanks for your reply...its really helpful!!! I never thought that it could be dried puss...but its possible!!!, however, he seems to have enough strength in his beak still...coz he can still bite me real hard and always fights with is son, biting each other.
Let me know what you think?...have you ever had similar problem with your birds?

Also "anti-protozoal like Metronidazole, Ronidazole, Secnidazole"--- what do they do? sounds good to me.

[Pidgey]

Canker is a flagellating protozoa. That is, it's a little one-celled organism that has whiplike appendages that it wiggles in order to move about. Those medications are in the Nitroimidazole family and they kill 'em if they're not too resistant. There is a difference between killing all the organisms and healing from the lesions, though. Around here, Metronidazole is usually called "Flagyl" and I have no idea what it is there (you're visiting in India, right?) but you'll have to research that.

It's always possible that it's something else, though, like Pox (Avian Poxvirus) or perhaps another kind of infection due to fighting with the other pigeons. I've got one bird that gets in fights all the time and he's got his beak messed up quite a bit--it can get kinda' ugly. If it's canker, then your vet should be able to make a wet-mount smear (take a sample by a wet Q-tip and smear it on a slide, put a coverslip over it, examine at 100x total magnification and look for trichomonads wiggling around) and see them.

The dosing for Metronidazole would be something like 10-30 mg/kg, BID or 20-50 mg/kg QD (once daily), for 5 to 10 days depending.

Pidgey

[kajupakhi]

HI Pidgey,

THANKS A LOT FOR BRINGING TO MY NOTICE THAT IT COULD BE CANKER!!!!
I was reading about canker on net and his symptoms matches very well.

The article I read says---
"Affected pigeons in a loft may cease to feed, become listless and ruffled in appearance, and lose weight before death. Pigeons often have difficulty when closing their mouths because of lesions in the oral cavity. They drool and make repeated swallowing movements. Watery eyes may be apparent in birds"
---well, Kaju is not listless, but everything else is just the same...sometimes, I see that his eyes are getting watery these days, and often when he sleeps, he makes swallowing movements....he made these movements the last year I was here as well, but the doctor explained that it was nothing important...BUT NOW I THINK ITS CANKER!!!...also, this time, it seems that he has some breathing problem as well.

I am here for only 2 weeks...have to go back to work soon, and I dunno if the doctors here know about Canker and what meds they have...GOD!!! if it was USA, I would not be worried , coz I know that it can be treated. But here in India I feel soooooo scared and helpless...I AM SOOOO SCARED OF LOOSING KAJU...Its 11:30 at night here...time for me to go to bed, but I won't be able to sleep tonight, now that I think that he probably has canker.
I will get in touch tomorrow

PLEASE GUYS PRAY THAT HE GETS WELL SOON

[Pidgey]

It's always nice to have a Dx (Diagnosis) but that's kinda' loose in this case because there are other things it could be. Another aspect of this possibility, though, is that if you've got more than one bird and they all drink out of the same waterer, they're all likely to be carrying it and so it's possible to cure the bird only for him to turn around and get it again. Usually with canker, you have to cure the entire loft at the same time. It's mostly a problem with younger birds (in the nestling to 2 months old range) but older birds can start having problems due to... getting older. So, that adds to your burden if that's what he, in fact, has.

I forgot to mention that a common medicine for this is Emtryl which is Dimetridazole. If you use that, it typically comes in a powder and you have to be more careful with the dosing of that stuff because it can cause bad problems if they overdose on it.

Pidgey

[Skyeking]

Hi kajupakhi,

I'm so sorry to hear about Kaju.

Is there anyway you can provide us a picture (a good clear closeup) of the beak and the lesion?

Also, sometimes a bird with Canker will have bad breath too.

[feralpigeon]

kajupakhi, I'm sorry to hear about the difficulties that you are having w/Kaju's
health. I would also be curious to know what the specific medications and
dosages are that this pigeon is being treated for. It's possible for medications to have side effects and this is worth taking a look at. Pictures would be great if you can swing it.

fp

[kajupakhi]

Hi Treesa, Pidgey,

Thanks a lot for your replies.
Its 9:30 am in the morning in India, and I rushed Kaju to another Doctor this morning and just came back...well he says that its not canker but some fungal infection. However, he was not able to see the white depositions coz it had already been scrapped out by the Doctor I visited previously.
But he said that the white stuffs in Canker cannot be scraped out, they need to be cut out and would bleed, since we were able to scrape them out without cutting, so its not canker...WHAT DO U GUYS THINK?...I told him about the other symptoms and he still says that its not canker...He also said that the other doctor SHOULD NEVER HAVE SCRAPED THE DEPOSITIONS, should have used meds for removal instead...this new doc gave me new meds for treatment....

But I am VERY confused by now about what to do. It will BE GREAT IF ITS NOT CANKER AND JUST REGULAR FUNGAL INFECTION, but since there is no proper facility for Diagnosis...HOW CAN I BE SO SURE?

So I am thinking of self-treating them of canker.
Pidgey talked about the canker meds available in US like "Metronidazole, Ronidazole, Secnidazole ". I am thinking of making my partner buy them from US and ship them over to India very quickly so I can get them treated for Canker before I leave in 2 weeks. Since I am in hurry,so I do not want to order them online, rather I will have my partner go to a nearby animal med shop to buy them.

I live in Vienna, Virginia, USA, and my zip is 22180.
Can any one of you guys please help me locate any such med shop near that area...alternatively any online shop which will deliver quickly will do as well.
It will be of great help if you guys can provide that information.
Also, I want to know if there are any harmful effects of treating my birds of canker, if suppose they do not really have it???????????PLEASE LET ME KNOW

Treesa--Its an excellent idea to take a picture of his mouth and post it to u guys. I will try to do so soon!!!
However I will have to arrange for his picture to be taken and then get it scanned...it could take a day or 2.
Moreover, you will not be able to see the white depositions coz they have already been scrapped out.
However, I will still arrange to get his picture taken so u guys can have a look.

THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL YOUR HELP

KAjupakhi

[TAWhatley]

Hi Kajupakhi,

It won't hurt to treat for canker even if the birds don't have it. You might try looking for the brand name of the drug, which is Flagyl. Most of the on-line pigeon supply houses have canker drugs readily available though they may not be exactly the generic metronidazole. You can also look in the local pet/fish stores for Fishzole or an equivalent .. it should be the same drug as what we are looking for. Also, you could check for some local pigeon clubs and see if any of the members could help you out.

What meds did the second doctor give you .. presumably for a fungal infection?

Terry

[kajupakhi]

Hi fp,
thanks a lot for your reply...well most of the meds available here that I give to Kaju is for humans. The most common vitamin/ mineral/calcium med that I give is called "zest"(3 drops a day) and I give him "immolyte-c" and albendazole once a year for worms. And some powder for lice.

But this year when I came to India, I also noticed that his feathers are getting reddish...docs say that its due to liver problems, so he has some new meds for that, though I have not started giving it yet, and today the doctor prescribed some new meds...I do not have the names at this momment, I will give them to you when I get them sometines later...but they are all meds available locally here in India.

Thanks

Kajupakhi

[feralpigeon]

Hi there,

Have either of these doctors run any lab work on your bird, this I am curious
about.

Birds do get fungal infections,
sometimes they can be severe, not to frighten you. Like canker, some types of fungal infections can invade the organs. Thrush in the mouth can/will come off, I've seen it actually come off in a kind of sheet on one rescue.
Some people do remove the canker growths, although there are ample warnings at different sites and in books not to do so as well, it can cause bleeding. You can take a cue tip dipped in the canker medication and apply
it directly to a growth to help it dry up and kill the trophozoite itself.

There are Pigeon Supply Houses here that you can order meds through and they can, depending on your shipping choice arrive within a day or two....
They are listed in a link here in the Resource Section .

Here's a link on Albendazole that you should probably read:

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?...icp=1&.intl=us

Might be taxing your pet's liver.

fp .

[kajupakhi]

Hi Terry, Fp,

the meds prescribed by the second doctor is:

1. Candid oral--2 drops in the mouth for the depositions.

2. Roxy-I---1/10th of this tablet twice for antibiotics, for occational watery eyes and swallowing motions in throat etc.

The above 2 are meds for humans.

3. ambiplex ---this is an animal med for good liver and feathers etc

4. Zest--for minerals/calcium/vitamins(I have been using that for more than 1 year and its good)

Its good to know that there are no negative effects for canker treatment...I will get that done then...is there any specific good med shop in our area in USA where my partner can go and buy? U see, he is ignorant about animals and their meds, and will not be able to venture and find out... so I will have to provide him with all the details and he will then buy and ship them over to me in India

Thanks
Kajupakhi