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Pigeon01 Pigeon01 is offline
Posted 4th November 2012, 04:12 PM
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Blue bar x white


What would I get if I crossed a blue bar male with a white hen


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MaryOfExeter MaryOfExeter is offline
Posted 4th November 2012, 06:19 PM
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Depends on what is underneath the white.
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sev3ns0uls sev3ns0uls is offline
Posted 4th November 2012, 07:44 PM
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I will try my best to elaborate what MaryofExeter said. Yes, when i first have pigeons, i was very confuse to an answer like this too so I empathy you. anyway, well she means what under neat the white one is what color it has. Recessive white is a color that will hide the other color if it was breed from a recessive white with another recessive white or one that carries the recessive white gene.

Since you have a blue bird x a full white bird, the chance of a full white offspring is not likely gonna happen. But the off spring will indeed will carries the recessive white gene in them (likely is the son offspring only and the daughter offspring will not carry the recessive white genes). Because the son will carries both mom and dad's color and daughter will carries dad's color only.


in your case, you are likely to get "pie" or "splash" such as:
"pie" red bar (if under neat the white one has red gene) carrying recessive white genes.
"pie" blue bar (if under neat the white one has blue gene) carrying recessive white genes.
or "grizzle" carrying recessive white genes.

But when you breed the male offspring with a another hen (despite of color) that you know carries the recessive white gene, then your chance of getting a full white birds will be 50/50.

These are only theories from many pigeon breeders. I on the other hand dont really believe these theories because you will never know what you get until you see it. But, in a way, these theories give you a close-up clue to what you will get of from the colors of the parent birds.

Last edited by sev3ns0uls; 4th November 2012 at 07:52 PM.
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NZ Pigeon NZ Pigeon is offline
Posted 4th November 2012, 10:45 PM
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These theories sevensouls talks off are actually prooven facts. If someone actually takes note of their birds and knows their breeding they can see these predictions are correct and as scientific as they can be without the genome being mapped.

Basically the same as Becky, We cannot know what you will get unless you tell us the parentage of the white, And even then its not certain we can predict.

Sevensouls, Why you ask for our help so often if you do not believe the system we base our predictions on as being true??

Also, what are you basing your pied predictions on, There is nothing in the two parents bird that can possible give you the info you would need to predict pied offsprings and your prediction is certainly just a theory.

Also you say the theories are from many pigeon breeders, Are you aware that Charles Darwin used these theories and methods to proove evolution, Pretty big thing to proove if the basis of his finds were only theories.

close up clue???? Sorrry but your post above is a bit of a ramble and has no scientific basis to it, Apart from where you said if the white is paired to a bird carrying white that 50% will be whites.

Also? why you think grizzle? carrying recessive white genes? Confusing....
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2y4life 2y4life is offline
Posted 5th November 2012, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigeon01 View Post
What would I get if I crossed a blue bar male with a white hen
Basically Becky is on the money. I will explain in simple language.

When you have a white bird, the bird is not really "white". The white is "covering" the birds actual color. So it's hard to determine what you will get when you mate a blue bar with a white bird. You could get almost ANYTHING.
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sport14692 sport14692 is offline
Posted 5th November 2012, 11:15 AM
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Becky really knows her pigeon genetics, she amazes me
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Pigeon01 Pigeon01 is offline
Posted 5th November 2012, 05:26 PM
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The parents of the white hen are : white male and red ash hen
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sev3ns0uls sev3ns0uls is offline
Posted 5th November 2012, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZ Pigeon View Post
These theories sevensouls talks off are actually prooven facts. If someone actually takes note of their birds and knows their breeding they can see these predictions are correct and as scientific as they can be without the genome being mapped.

Basically the same as Becky, We cannot know what you will get unless you tell us the parentage of the white, And even then its not certain we can predict.

Sevensouls, Why you ask for our help so often if you do not believe the system we base our predictions on as being true??

Also, what are you basing your pied predictions on, There is nothing in the two parents bird that can possible give you the info you would need to predict pied offsprings and your prediction is certainly just a theory.

Also you say the theories are from many pigeon breeders, Are you aware that Charles Darwin used these theories and methods to proove evolution, Pretty big thing to proove if the basis of his finds were only theories.

close up clue???? Sorrry but your post above is a bit of a ramble and has no scientific basis to it, Apart from where you said if the white is paired to a bird carrying white that 50% will be whites.

Also? why you think grizzle? carrying recessive white genes? Confusing....
I must admit that im a very rookie. There are many contribution to what can really pops out. In fact, a year ago, I have a question about the offsprings of my Andalusia cock and splash lemon hen. Both offspring are hens and eventually, each have one parent's color. So there i was, thinking that if both offspring are hen, then why am i getting this white splash lemon bird?!? should it be a cock if the "scientific" theory proven.

here is the old thread,

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/i-...tic-58064.html


Anyway this case was rest to peace because there was no straight forward answer. Just guessing color coming from here and there and i still left puzzled.


Oh yea, last spring this offspring lemon hen who mated with a Recessive white cock got me a Recessive white cock and a grizzle.........So how did she get the Recessive white gene from? Her mother may have it since she is splash lemon carrying the white genes, but how did that get pass down to her daughter?? if its so true that daughter will carrying only father genes, then this theory may be a little sketchy.

here is her and her white mate:


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Pigeon01, here is a sneak peak!-------
I say grizzle because i got a grizzle carrying blue and a red grizzle carrying blue or white.

parents birds (cock is blue, and hen is Recessive white carrying red)


here are their first offsprings. (son is red grizzle and daughter is grizzle)from their second clutch, i got a splash redbar cock

As she molted, her darker feathers are starting to showing more.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by sev3ns0uls; 5th November 2012 at 10:04 PM.
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sev3ns0uls sev3ns0uls is offline
Posted 5th November 2012, 09:55 PM
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here is the grizzle hen recent photo. Taken 2 weeks ago after 1st molted. she is very tame and love her very much!
In-fact she has one bull eye and one yellow eyes. Dennis khun said that a bull eye x a bull eye may get you a recessive white.



So my point is that, theories "can" be disprove. You will never know what you get until it pops out.

Last edited by sev3ns0uls; 5th November 2012 at 09:59 PM.
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sev3ns0uls sev3ns0uls is offline
Posted 5th November 2012, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigeon01 View Post
What would I get if I crossed a blue bar male with a white hen
So watch carefully, you have 75% of getting of what i have up there!
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MaryOfExeter MaryOfExeter is offline
Posted 5th November 2012, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigeon01 View Post
The parents of the white hen are : white male and red ash hen
That is a start


Sorry for being so blunt in my first post, by the way. I was just checking in for a moment and didn't have much time to elaborate.


First of all, does this white bird of yours have black (bull) eyes or orange/yellow or any other color eyes? I assume black, and I assume it is recessive white. But I could be wrong since you haven't said for sure one way or the other.

Anyway, your white hen could be literally anything "underneath" the white color. It could be ash-red, blue, brown, and could have any modifier. It would be a little easier to guess what she is if her parents' colors were reversed (where the dad was the non-white). That's because the three "base" colors - ash-red, blue, and brown - are sex-linked, so your hen would have gotten her "base" color from dad. But since he was white, and we don't know what he was genetically, we also don't know what your hen is.

The way recessive white works is, no matter what color the bird WOULD have been, because it has the recessive white, it automatically appears white. So genetically, your hen could be solid black for example....but the recessive white turns it visibly white instead. So that's what I and others mean by what is "underneath" - we mean what is hidden and what would have shown if not for that white gene.

If she is pied underneath, you will likely get pied offspring from her. If she is carrying no pied genes, you won't. If she is grizzle underneath, you will get some grizzles of one color or another. If she isn't, you won't (grizzle is dominant so if they show it, they have it, and if they don't show it, they don't have it). If the cockbird she is mated to is carrying recessive white, then about half of the offspring will also be recessive white. THAT is one thing for sure.

Assuming your blue bar male is NOT carrying brown, then another thing is for sure - any hens you get out of this pairing will be blue of some kind. If your white hen is blue underneath then you will get all blue kids....but either way, the hens will for sure be blue. If she is ash-red underneath, you will get ash-red sons and blue hens. If she is brown underneath, you will get brown sons and blue hens. So basically just look for what the sons turn out to be and that will answer what your hen underneath the white. Pretty simple. But one of those things where you'll have to wait a little while and see what happens The other modifers she may be hiding will show themselves in time as well. Even if you have to wait until her grandkids pop out.
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MaryOfExeter MaryOfExeter is offline
Posted 5th November 2012, 10:07 PM
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Sevensouls, recessive white is an autosomal recessive gene. Both hens and cocks have two "slots" for this gene. So the mother and father both contribute a copy to each kid. Only sex-linked genes work where the daughters only get the copy from dad and the sons get a copy from mom and a copy from dad.
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Becky M. L.
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NZ Pigeon NZ Pigeon is offline
Posted 6th November 2012, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sev3ns0uls View Post
So watch carefully, you have 75% of getting of what i have up there!
75%? that number has been pulled out of the sky

Just one thing about what you mention in your other post, You are 100% correct that lots of things can pop up that were unexpected but we cannot predict a birds genome from a picture, Sure we could list to you all the possibilities of what you could get but the list would be long.

An example is

Ash red hen

Blue cock

100% of hens are blue,

100% of cocks are ash red carrying blue.

Now that is prooven and cannot be disputed unless you want to know all the possibilities, I would then need to list to you all the recessive genes that could pop up which would be ridicolous, If you get a dilute blue hen well then come back to us and we can re-jig the outcomes with knowing that the cock carries dilute.
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Pigeon01 Pigeon01 is offline
Posted 6th November 2012, 07:08 PM
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Sevensouls you have some beautiful birds
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arsuyo arsuyo is offline
Posted 14th March 2013, 09:40 AM
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Hi Pigeon01,

Did you cross the blue bar male with White hen? could you share the outcome?
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