clavamox - augmentin

[pigifan]

Does anyone know if clavamox (synulox in the UK), an animal produc,t is the same as augmentin which is sold for human consumption.
I think it is as they are both amoxycillin (2/3rds) and claruvanate (1/3rd).
Claruvanate can also be referred as claruvanic acid, potassium claruvanate...

I can get augmentin without prescription while I need a prescription for clavamox. I will just have to reduce the quantity as the human product (augnebtin) contains a lot more than clavamox.
Augmentin is also known as co-amoxiclav.

[Skyeking]

I know either one or the other is recommended for pigeons that have had cat bites and scratches. You can get either, depending on where you live.

One of our medicine experts will have to verify that.

[sabina]

Augmentin is amoxicillin + clavulanic acid. Amoxicillin is a broad-spectrum penicillin and clavulanic acid is a beta-lactamase inhibitor (ie it reduces the risk of antibiotic resistance). So it is the same ingredients as Clavamox.

The proportions for humans vary, sometimes 4:1, eg amoxicillin 250mg with clavulanic acid 62.5mg, sometimes 7:1, eg amoxicillin 875 with clavulanic acid 125mg. Basically, it's ok to go high on the amoxicillin part (for humans); the clavulanic acid doesn't increase proportionately. When dosing for Augmentin, the strength is chosen based on the amount of amoxicillin needed (which ranges from 30-90mg/kg based on the type of infection and age).

My knowledge is 100% human-based, so maybe someone else can reply about dosing for pigeons!

Sabina

[pigifan]

Thank you Trees Gray and Sabina for your replies.

The augmentin I ordered is 2:1.

[pdpbison]

Hi Pigifan,


I tried to get these but could not locate any suppliers here in the US...so, if anyone has any recommendations, I would be obliged.

Doseage-wise, our Pidgey of course is very good at remembering or finding out, but he is away right now.

My own appreciation, is that one must figure out what the strength is of a particular medicine, and the recommended ratio of unites od med, to patient's body weight.

Birds of course, with some medicines, will do better with a higher than proportional dose that is based on weight, and, possibly, sometimes even a lower one, but not that I recall hearing of per-se...and this is something for which one either has to find in some text books, or, from personal advice.

The problem with meds intended for people-use rather than for Avian medicine-use, is that there will be no deferential data on dosage adjustments for Avian patients.

So, as far as I know anyway, one begins by decideing the strict ration of units of medicine of a given strength to patient's body weight...and, elects on intuition or hunch whether to abide by that or up it somewhat for the Bird.

It is possible that a 'google' might provide the basic so-much-med-units per kilogram of patient's weight, and one can go from there to get it into being so-many-units-per-gram.

This of course depends on the actual strength of the medicine in question, as some meds seem to come in varying strengths.

Sorry I can not be more helpful...

Good luck!

Phil
Las Vegas

[pigifan]

Hi Phil

I got augmentin from www.edrugnet.co.uk.

No prescription required.

Don't worry about the co.uk adress, it is shipped to the US too. In fact it takes two weeks to arrive to either the US or the UK which suggests that it is shipped from somewhere else.
It also sells Nitrofurazone which is what you suggested for the shot pigeon.
I ordered Nitrofurazone also.

Clavamox dosage is 12.5mg twice daily which means the same for augmentin, ie. if you have 156mg per 5ml syrup you give 0.4 ml twice daily. According to Cynthia if you have a human tablet (say 250 mg) and you can't cut it to convenient pieces you can dilute part of the tablet in purified water and regulate the amount needed by measuring the water quantity.

[pigifan]

Clavamox is indeed an excellent antibacterial, I have used it for a smelly eye infection and within 3 days the smell disappeared. I think it is more effective than Baytril.

The following dog site contains descriptions of common antibiotics
http://www.terrierman.com/antibiotics.htm

[cubanlofts]

I just used human clavamox on pigeons this morning, i mixed one pill 500 mil on 2 gallons of water, and i ll be treating them for 5 days, cause i had a dead bird this morning, i assure u it wasnt canker, or worms cause i treated them for both, i the other hand i have my breders loft in which iam using amoxi cause of a couple of birds with eyes shut, hope is just a cold, no canker either on this loft, but they r both pills for humans, i have use them before with no problem, also i am using clavamox on a wouded bird by a hawk and neosporin on his wound

[Dobato]

Originally Posted by cubanlofts

I just used human clavamox on pigeons this morning, i mixed one pill 500 mil on 2 gallons of water, and i ll be treating them for 5 days, cause i had a dead bird this morning, i assure u it wasnt canker, or worms cause i treated them for both, i the other hand i have my breders loft in which iam using amoxi cause of a couple of birds with eyes shut, hope is just a cold, no canker either on this loft, but they r both pills for humans, i have use them before with no problem, also i am using clavamox on a wouded bird by a hawk and neosporin on his wound

Cubanlofts, the way you have mixed the Clavamox is going to be at way too weak a concentration to be of any real use, in fact when you give sub-therapeutic doses of antibiotics you are just asking for trouble in creating resistant strains of bacteria.

A frequent recommended dosing for pigeons of Clavamox is 125mg/kg q12h, so this calls for a bird weighing 300 grams to receive 37.5mg of Clavamox every 12 hours. At the dose you have mixed, 500mg into 2 gallons of water (256 ounces), this means there will be just under 2mg of Clavamox per ounce (roughly 30mL). Since a bird this time of year typically drinks perhaps an ounce or two a day, they will be getting just 2-4mg of med instead of the 75mg called for in the example I gave you above.

You would be much better off crushing the pill up and making a much more concentrated suspension and dosing individually. I do have a reference for a suggested water dosing for Amoxicillin for pigeons of 1500mg/L (roughly 6000mg a gallon) for 5 days if flock treating. I don't have a suggested water dose for pigeons for Clavamox, but since Clavamox is a potentialized form of Amoxicillin, I would think you will need to be at least in the 1000mg/L range (1mg/mL, roughly 2000mg per gallon). This means, for the example I gave above a drinking 1-2 onces of water a day will receive 30-60mg of med which would be in short of what is called for for individual dosing, but would be in a therapeutic range.

If you need help mixing up individual dosing, I can help you with that.

Good luck with your birds,

Karyn

[cubanlofts]

oh, no thanks< i think i got it pretty good.

[pdpbison]

Hi cubanlofts,


No, you have the dosage way too light, and you had really best do it over again to a more correct proportion of Medicine-to-Water, and to base it also on how much your Birds actually drink in 24 hours.


How many Birds are you trying to dose?


If only a few, the better way to go would be to dose each one individually, so you can be sure they are in fact getting a dose which is about right for their weight.


How many Birds appear to be ill, and, what other details can you supply about their symptoms, history, poops, and so on?



Phil
Las Vegas

[cubanlofts]

I have a friend that knew this vet, and he s taking care of the birds now, and yes, u r right, he s making me treat 3 birds individually, every 12 hours with clav mox, and the rest he gave me an all in one to cover the flock, one of them is the flu, she has a clear throat and she is eating already this morning, so is my big blue checker, he s underweight, but eating this morning, the other 1 has a wound from a hawk, and she is getting mox, and neosporing on the wound, being 2 days and she looks fine, but after that attack, i had a bird that died overnight, she looked healthy, so i think it was a heart attack. but winter is almost here, so iam building their inmune system with feed for the winter, low proteine, as they r not going to fly, he said, but good calories for the cold. it was only a pair of birds that were not eating, the other ones are like pigs, he showed me their throats and they were nice, clean, real good color, no smell, but at the same times their eyes were swelling, kind of shutting with yakyyy stuff on them, so he said it s the flu, and he s treating every one, flock is always being healthy, like 60 birds in here, in 2 lofts, like 40 breeders in one, and 20 flyers in the other one, they are from all over, and i have added birds within the last 3 months, and i always treat when i add new birds, for everything, like cocci, canker, worms, e coli, parvo, u name it, but that dont happen 2 often.
ps he took the dead bird, and some blood samples

I can guess forever whats wrong with them, but i guess the microscope is gonna do better than me, and this guy is an old vet with many years working with birds, so i guess i was lucky to find him.
best part, just cause iam a new costumer and he is a good christian man, it was only 55 dollars to come to my place and the cost of meds, now blood work and other meds i have no idea, but i tough he was cheap.