Eggs hatching now, we're not ready, someone call a doctor!

[Joshaway]

Nootie and re lee, you too are funny. My whole family is laughing at your competition. But what should I do about my pigeon?
Chris and Josh

[Nooti]

But what should I do about my pigeon?
*************************************
Feed it egg yolk! :-)
Actually - taking a look at the figures - the fat content of yolk is too high - so if you brought up the protien content to a relevant figure by adding meat - such as raw minced beef and liquidising which would mean you increase the water content to a comparable amount - you would have a pretty much ok diet for the first few days.
I may even give that a go myself next time.
Good night - it's going on midnight here in the UK.

[maryco]

How about a bit of egg white and abit of egg yolk?

[TAWhatley]

Just to add some more information and input:

Terry Whatley

MacMilk: Crop Milk Replacer Recipe

1 jar (71 grams) strained chicken baby food
1 hard-boiled egg yolk (16.6 grams)
1 tablespoon low-fat yogurt (15.3 grams)
¼ teaspoon corn oil (1.13 grams)
247.6 mg calcium carbonate
2 drops cod-liver oil (from gel cap)
1 drop vitamin E (diluted 1:10 in corn oil; see notes)
1 small pinch vitamin B complex (see notes)
25 mg. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)

For birds days 1 to 3, digestive enzymes (see notes)

Method: Mix all ingredients in a blender. Allow the digestive enzymes to work on the food for ½ hour before using at room temperature. Warm it to 'wrist' temperature before feeding.

Note: because the replacer offers more calories and is more bioavailable than other diets, you may require less than you are used to feeding. Weigh the bird, calculate its energy
requirements and feed accordingly.

MacMilk® Astrid MacLeod and Janine Perlman, 2001©

NOTES

Vitamins: Vitamin E, as purchased, is too 'strong' for the correction required in this diet. Mix one drop of vitamin E (from a 400 IU/ capsule) with 10 drops of corn oil. Shake or stir well. Then, use 1 drop of the diluted vitamin E in the recipe. The remainder can be kept in an airtight container and stored in a cool, dark place. It can be used over the next few days -. Because vitamin E degrades, it will have to be mixed fresh after a
few days, so don't make too much at once. The amount of B complex required is too small to weigh on a gram scale. The amount required for this recipe is a pinch the size of one sesame seed.

Enzymes: Hatchling doves do not have high enough levels of proteases and other enzymes to digest foods well. Although crop milk is high in protein, as described earlier in this section, some of the protein is in the form of 'free amino acids' - thus, already broken down. This is one of the reasons that raising hatchling doves has been very difficult in the past. We can break down the protein in the crop milk replacer by adding digestive enzymes.

Birds days one to three: digestive enzymes must be added to all hatchling diets, and can be discontinued after day three, when the bird's own digestive enzymes are at higher levels. Pancrezyme can be purchased from a veterinary clinic. Enzymes from the health food store probably will not be effective. Because enzymes are required for hatchling diets and in emaciation protocol, they are good to have on hand.

Method: You will require 1/8 teaspoon of enzymes for one recipe of MacMilk. Mix the enzymes with the food 30 minutes before feeding, to allow the enzymes to work on the food. Do not mix enzymes with the day's ration of food - only with what will be used in the next feeding. Otherwise, the diet will spoil. You will have to estimate how much of a recipe of MacMilk you require per feeding based on the number of hatchlings you have to feed. Then, add the enzymes as needed; for example, if you will be using 1/8th recipe of MacMilk,
use a small pinch of enzymes (1/8th the amount of what is required for the whole recipe). To do this, take the amount of food that you'll need for the next feeding and mix it with the enzymes. Let the food sit for 30 minutes before feeding, so that the enzymes can work on the food.

Columbids Day Four and Later: Discontinue the addition of enzymes to MacMilk. Some species begin to mix crop milk with regurgitated (partially digested) seeds or grains sooner than others. Generally, the rule of thumb might be to use crop milk replacer for at least the first week of life, and begin to gradually mix in other foods
over a period of two weeks. During the first days of new additions, the baby bird will not yet be digesting all the carbohydrates, and the high-protein food is still needed for growth and feathering, thus a gradual changeover is necessary. Good choices might be Exact® with gradual additions of foods like mixed-cereal pablum with an added tablespoon of strained baby food corn.

Feeding technique: To feed older nestling doves, one method allows the baby to 'root'. Pull up formula in a large feeding syringe and then remove the plunger. Across the wide opening of the syringe (not the tip), stretch a piece of vet wrap or rubber dam (used by dentists) that has a hole to accommodate the bull. Secure well with a rubber band. The bird will thrust its bill into the opening and 'drink', much as it does from its parent. These methods can be
messy until you acquire a technique; wipe up any formula on the baby with a Q-tip dipped in warm water.

Some rehabbers prefer to feed nestling doves and pigeons with a tube and syringe. This does take practice; the tube must slide down the side of the throat without getting any fluid into the tracheal opening. Instructions for tube feeding can be found in the fluid therapy section of this manual. As a rehabilitator's tube-feeding skills develop, the amount of formula the doves take at various ages follows a pattern. Although a rehabilitator may attempt to feed quickly at the height of baby season, haste can have serious consequences. Always go slowly when emptying the contents of the syringe into the bird's crop, especially with newly presented birds. Every so often a dove will have a smaller crop capacity than normal and the excess formula can aspirate the bird.

When using a tube and syringe to feed or hydrate any bird, make sure the tubing is soft and flexible. Medical grade tubing is expensive but worth every penny to prevent harm to delicate tissue in the throat and crop.

To prevent impaction, It is very important that the crop be allowed to fully empty before it is filled again. The crop is very noticeable as a sort of pouch that overlays the breastbone. After feeding, the crop should not be hard to the touch. Feed only enough to fill the crop ¾ full -- this feels similar to a hot water bottle that is ¾ full. An impacted crop results when the crop becomes too full for the normal passage of food.

Since doves have larger crops than gaping birds, they do not have to be fed as often. The rule of thumb for doves in their first week of life would be 4 feedings per day, and as the bird moves towards weaning, going to 3 feedings per day and gradually weaning to 2.

[re lee]

have your laugh then take what you think is right to feed your bird if it makes it you raised it if not you tried. just thought I would give an idea and several have offered thers rest is up to you. good luck

[TAWhatley]

Hi Robert,

I think Chris and Josh were just having a little fun .. for sure they are too new at raising babies to be making any serious comments to either you or Helen.

The issue of good nutrition for baby birds whether they are pigeons or another species is very important and different types of birds require different types of nutrition to grow up strong and healthy.

I posted the MacMilk "article" because the people who wrote it have done very extensive research about the nutritional requirements of baby birds. It was posted in the hope that members would read it and learn from it. There is another "article" for passerines where the diet is known as the MacDiet.

From personal experience in hand raising tiny orphaned squabs, I know that the liquid baby bird formula by itself it not really enough .. they need some extra nutrition in the first week. I don't have a problem with folks feeding baby bird formula but do suggest the addition of additional protein for the first week or so of life .. this can be human baby food .. chicken, turkey, beef, veal and such.

And, I'm not trying to start a great controversy here, but I am totally convinced that egg white would not be sufficient for raising healthy baby pigeons. Perhaps the addition of some egg white as well as egg yolk to the formula would be beneficial, but egg white by itself .. no not enough to sustain the baby.

Terry Whatley

[Nooti]

Terry's right Robert. They are laughing at us but not in a malicious way. We deal with very serious issues on this board with plenty of sadness and heartbreak. How nice if we can raise a smile on someone's face while they are learning how to care for a little one.

[Joshaway]

Maybe I should explain, we can't wait to read the latest post and we are all enjoying it. When I say lauging, I mean it, but not in an unkind way. This is exciting and informative, but I have no experience to make educated decisions.

Meanwhile, back at the pumpkin shell, Peter is doing pretty well, but I do think I will try adding some protein. I really wish I had ever even seen a baby pij before in person, so I could say "he's right on track", but...He seems to be doing well, he lets us know when he wants to eat by peeping and eats eagerly and then just stops when he's full and falls asleep. Like a baby human, I understand that much.
I will look closely at the pictures of baby Sara to compare.

Sorry Nooti to mispell your name.
Thanks again to everybody for all the input and entertainment.
Chris and Josh

[Nooti]

Sorry Nooti to mispell your name.
*********************
Did you?
I hadn't noticed!
My brain only processes important information and a little thing like my name just gets waved aside! :-)
Glad he seems to be doing ok - but a high protein content is important. Red meat is best. Poultry has a lower protein content - try a beef dinner baby food.

[AZWhitefeather]

Good morning Chris & Josh,
Would it be possible to get a picture of Peter & post it? That may help us, as well, in determining his age.
I have learned so much since Whitefeather came into my life. You think YOU don't have any knowledge of raising a baby pij. Think again. lol.
The story of me & Whitefeather would probably turn Helen's hair gray. I didn't have a clue of what I was doing & was not yet blessed with this site. So....
Hang in there, take heed of all advice sent your way, however, pay particular attention to the advice of Nootie, Terry, Mary & Fred as they have dealt with ill & injured pigeons for many years.
Please keep us posted.
Cindy

[This message has been edited by AZWhitefeather (edited May 31, 2003).]

[TAWhatley]

You can click on the link to baby Sara's pictures on the home page here at pigeons.com to see a wonderful series of pictures detailing Sara's development from tiny baby to beautiful bird.

Terry Whatley

[maryco]

I have 2 babies that just hatched yesterday morning on my balcony.. I'll try to get a picture everyday so you can see how they grow, babies that are raised by humans grow slower but don't worry they will end up fatter and chubbier than a feral by time they are full grown

Mary

[maryco]

Hi, I got some pics.. Sorry about the quality of the photo, they usually come out good but the window is right there and the light keeps shining off it.
Also the father won't get off so I could only get 1 pic of them alone.

Day 1: http://community.webshots.com/photo/...75071933KeNABL

Day 2: http://community.webshots.com/photo/...75071963HraxRn http://community.webshots.com/photo/...75071991iRaxrG


Mary

[Joshaway]

OK we took some quick pictures. I followed Mary's lead and posted them on the webshots page that she used. http://community.webshots.com/user/joshaway4491
I hope that get you there. It's also new to me.
We fed Peter some egg yolk-mostly, a bit of egg white (I hope it was supposed to be boiled) a bit of cooked ground beef, smashed as much as possible (I'll pick up some baby food meat tonight) and mixed all that together, added water and mixed with half his formula. He took it.
the MacMilk recipe looks promising, but I have only half the ingredients, I'll see what I can get in town.
I hope the pictures are useful, but I hope you don't discover something awful, like he's really a cowbird! Ha ha. He ate right after the pictures were taken.
Thanks,
Chris and Josh

[TAWhatley]

Wonderful pictures! Thanks so much for sharing them with us. Yep, Peter is definitely a little pigeon .. very, very cute.

Terry Whatley