Eggs hatching now, we're not ready, someone call a doctor!

[Joshaway]

Last week my father-in-law found a pair of eggs in an airconditioning unit that was being set on the roof of a commercial building. He saved the eggs and gave them to my 12 year old son Josh. We thought the eggs were freshly laid and have mainly concentrated on finding out how to incubate them, but to our surprise at 10:00pm (5/28/03) one of them is hatching out! We have no food or facts to guide us. My husband went out to buy some baby cereal. At this point we would love some advice quick. Oh Yeah, the baby's name is Peter because we made the nest out of shredded paper and tissues and put the eggs in a wooden pumpkin shell, and there he kept them very well.

[AZWhitefeather]

Good evening & Welcome to Pigeons.com,
Many thanks to your father-in-law for rescuing the eggs. Mom & Dad were not to be found?
The first thing I would suggest is to click on 'resourses', upper right corner. Then click on basic care. This will give you a good idea of what you will need to care for your birds.
Since there were only two eggs, I am going to assume they are pigeon eggs.
I'm going to close for now so you can read up on how to care for 'Peter' and his sibling.
Please keep us posted on how things are coming along.
Any other questions or concerns? Please post them here & we will assist as best as we can.
Cindy

[maryco]

Hello,

First off check out the "Resources" above..

For a baby 1-13 days I usually feed baby bird formula (From a pet shop) with a syringe or a eye dropper.
They are very tiny so you have to be very careful, open the mouth gently with your left hand then with an eye dropper suck up some soupy formula and feed the baby (be sure not to get anything in the hole behind the tongue, That is the windpipe and the baby could easily aspirate and die!)

Feed until the baby's crop looks full but not too much or else it could come back up and he could aspirate.

For pigeons you don't have to wake up at night to feed them, I usually just watch the pigeon and when his crop empties I give him another feeding.

Baby pigeons open their eyes on day 4 or 5

As they get older (about 13 days old) you can switch to either soaked seeds or soaked puppy chow.
I soak wild bird seed for about 4-5 hours then soak it in warm water, drain it and mix abit of baby bird formula with it, Now you can hand feed it to the baby by holding his mouth open with your left hand and scooping and putting it in his mouth with your right hand. He will swallow it.

With the puppy chow you can soak some pieces in warm water, drain then cut them up and put piece by piece in his mouth and again he will swallow.
Feed until the crop feels squishy, with the seeds it will feel like a beeny baby but it shouldn't feel hard otherwise he is over fed and could aspirate.
At about 15-17 days you can introduce dry seeds, put them around the baby and peck with your finger at them, he should get the idea

Hope that helps!

Mary

[Joshaway]

Thanks for the advice. We have read through many of the resources sites, but "Peter" came a lot sooner than we expected and we didn't have specific information about newly hatched pigeons. Already we have learned more in the past week than we ever knew before.

My father-in-law had to move the nest to keep it from being destroyed because of the stage of construction.

One more question. We have been incubating the eggs at around 100*F, is this the correct temperature for a chick?

"Peter" finished hatching and seems to be doing well. I fed him some cereal (I haven't made it to the pet store yet) he pooped when I fed him, if he's like a baby, I take that as a good sign.

Chris and Josh

[AZWhitefeather]

Good morning Chris & Josh.
So glad to hear Peter is doing well.
The resourse section on this site is a great reference. Refer back as often as needed.

I have never had to incubate eggs so I will leave the temp. question to the more experienced member, in that area.
Please do keep the updates coming.

If you are interested in seeing the growing process of a pigeon, I have a couple photo albums that you might enjoy.
The two with the babies are:
Frank & Jessie & their babies, & Bonnie & Clyde growing up. They can be located at: http://community.webshots.com/user/azwhitefeather
Click on the album you wish to view then click on 'view slideshow'
Hope you enjoy.
Cindy

[cyro51]

At least 80 degrees for a baby. Here are Devorah's instructions on baby pigeon care:
http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/Pi...igeoncare.html

Cynthia

[cyro51]

I asked Helen (Nooti) about this and she says the baby needs specialist care and active enzymes to mix with its food. These are things that the parent birds would provide. Is there anyone near you with experience of hand raising pigeons, or with pigeons that could provide foster care? It really is very important!

If you could let us know where you are we might be able to link you up with someone.

Cynthia

[Nooti]

Hand rearing is not easy. The enzymes they have in their system at birth are not active and therefore they cannot properly
digest any food you put in the crop. They would receive active enzymes from
their parents with the food as they are fed. So they need an artificial
active enzyme, like Panzyme which you get from a vet. This must be mixed
with their food for the first four or five days. After that they are mature enough
to produce their own.
Also, they need natural gut flora introducing into their digestive system so
that they can digest their food properly. These also line the stomach wall
and prevent any nasty bacteria setting up home there and killing your babes.
This, together with an electrolyte rehydrant must be given before any first
meal, and I usually give this about 3 hours after hatching. You will need
specialised tubing to reach into the crop and everything must be steam
sterilised before each meal for the first week. Despite all this at least
60% of babies I hand rear from birth go down with some kind of gut flora
infection within a week and I have to dose with co-trimoxazole, then a
probiotic afterwards.
Also the ratio of food to water in the formula varies with their age. It
must be very dilute for the first few days, then gradually thicken as they
get older. Dehydration and crop stasis occurs if the mixture is too thick,
cold, hot or anything other than the temperature and consistency of the
mixture the parents would be giving them. They need feeding every 2 hours
day and night usually up to a week before they are big enough to go all
night. Sleep through the alarm one night and in the morning you have babes nearly dead of dehydration.
I really do feel like I am being pessimistic here, but I am talking from
experience. Hand rearing from birth is not a job for a novice.It took me a
year of trying and a lot of heart-breaking dead babies before I was
successful. Now I have no problem with them. I wonder if you know of anyone
who keeps pigeons and may this one on for you. Just a thought.

[Birdmom4ever]

Do you by any chance know anyone near you who keeps pigeons? Because the best bet for these babies would be to have another pair "foster" them. However, the timing has to be right, i.e. they have to be at the right stage to have crop milk for them. I was thinking if someone has pigeons with single babies the same age, or is sitting on fake eggs near the end of the incubation period. Pretty unlikely you'd find someone, I guess, but it would be the chicks' best chance of survival.

Where are you? I have several pairs on fake eggs now.

-Cathy

[re lee]

Not all pet stores would have the right stuff for a pigeon. Research showed the closest thing to what is known as pigeon milk is the white of a egg. you boil the egg remove the yock use a fork chop up the white add just a little water. Then chop fine to form a milk type solution. warm it slightly use a syringe draw up abou a cc to 2 cc place to back of troat and in ject fast . at three days more will be added as bird gets older. at five days this can be reduced fifty fifty with feed supllement then at seven to eight straight supplement. feeding naeed to be 2 times daily. With a new born just be careful not to trist the beack much whgen you open as this can lead to a crossed beak later. preety safe at one weak though.

[Nooti]

Now I am surprised at that. There's very little protein in egg white - certainly nowhere near enough for a rapidly growing body. The yolk has more protein as this has to sustain a growing embryo. Pigeon milk is very high in protein. Just wondered where you saw the research results on this?

[Joshaway]

Argh! You guys scare me! I hope Peter doesn't find out about his unlikely future.
Other than that I was going to report that he is "seemly" doing well. He has strarted peeping. He sort of laps up his food when I put the syringe next to his beak and we can see his crop fill. We are feeding him "neo-nate" for smaller birds. It doesn't mention enzymes. We will reread the feeding advice and check and try to find some balance, but admittedly, I'm really at a loss outside of the store bought formulas, which cautions against adding other supplements.
Peter is growing and his yellow fur/feathers are fuller. I hope he is as healthy as he seems. We all enjoy having him: ugly/cute as he is. Josh says he is not ugly but only cute.
As for someone else near us raising pigeons, I doubt it. We live in the Ozarks of Mo. (woods), and pigeons aren't that prevalent around here, but I could probably find someone raising a baby raccoon.
How long should I incubate the other egg before giving up on it?
Thanks for the websites you all have given us. They have been very helpful. Wish us luck, and we will keep reading your advice.
Chris and Josh

[maryco]

Hello,

I've heard about the egg white thingy quite afew times here at pigeons.com, I tried searching on google but with no results

I'm glad to hear the baby is doing well Chris and Josh, Keep up the good work!


I think you can incubate the remaining egg for another 5 days max and if it doesn't hatch then you can give up..
If there is a healthy baby inside then it should hatch very soon.

Mary

[re lee]

The article came out in a pigeon magaazine about ten or twelve years ago. The was reseash done by a sienctific study as ther has been much different reseach over the years on pigeons. And the closet replacement they found to fit the natural pigeon milk was the egg white. Its properties was near the same as the pigeon produced on its own. The yolk of the egg was not a close or near subject for replacement. And Where in the egg do you find the begining of a fertile egg when candled? and then what is the food source for the unhactched young bird? And I followed the article and did what it said with good resalts so It proves to me to be within the source of a good study that found a close replacement for pigeon milk. After thinking on the above questions do you see that the egg white is what fed it in the egg. and the yolk was the developing bird. But you see in many pet stores food for hook billed young not pigeons. If it works for you then use it If I do it I will use the formula that was researched for pigeon use. And did you read the one about puting contact lences on racing homers to study homing ablity. 1979 this was done and proved eye site eye signs was not a major factor to home by. but mental and polar instinct was more a factor. There is research on pigeons and then it is a documented fact to gain insight. For the raising breeding and futher development of pigeon breeds. same with balanced feeds and what thew do or dont do.

[Nooti]

After thinking on the above questions do you see that the egg white is what fed it in the egg. and the yolk was the developing bird.
************************************
It seems there's more than one person makes this mistake.
The yolk nourishes the developing chick. It has a high percentage of protein and fat. The white has a much lower percentage of protein and no fat content.
Considering the vast rate of development of an embryo through to hatching chick the white could not sustain that sort of growth rate without a high percentage of fat also.
Also considering the fast growth rate of newly hatched pigeon- that is double the size and weight each day for the first 3 or 4, then crop milk has to contain fats in a good portion, therefore it cannot be consistent with the properties of egg white.
Another factor which bears this out is that nearly everyone knows that when a chick first hatches it has the remains of the yolk absorbed into its abdomen to sustain it with nourishment for the first 24 hours. Now this could not happen if the white was the nourishing factor and the yolk was the chick. It does not bear the evidence out.
I did some research and came up with some properties of these components for comparison.
Pigeon crop milk contains: 75% water, 15% protein, 9% fat and 1% minerals,
Egg white contains: 87% water 10% protein 0% fat 3% minerals
Egg yolk contains : 48% water 16% protein 30% fat 3% minerals
Given the evidence I think I would prefer to feed egg yolk rather than the white to any baby bird - not just pigeons. After all, it is a natural food for them! :-)