help with sex-linked and pigeon Genes

[AaronsWorld]

Originally Posted by Matt D.

No, it depends on phenotypes and the genotypes. Assuming red is dominant if you have two red birds you can still get a blue bird. 1 in 4 will if they are heterozygous. Go back and re-read it.

Yes exactly. Red>blue>brown. the blues would be???? hens lol...It is hard to talk about this without bringing up het/homo and a lot of other terms that make it easier to do but way more confusing for people that cant learn it all at once.

Originally Posted by zimmzimm3

So if you just have 2 different color birds do you just pair them up and then the babies will come out so that the baby with the same pattern as one of the parents will be the same sex as that parent.

No, the hen needs to have a more dominant color (like red colored hen versus a blue colored cock, or a blue colored hen and a brown colored cock) but this actually reverses the colors/sexes.... try it

Crosses with the same color will not work all of the time. They can however work some of the time.

For example, a red cock and a red hen can have 25% blue hens the other 75% are red hens or cocks.

This is why->

cock (red, blue) x hen (red)

F1-> cocks (red, red) or (blue, red) and hens (blue) or (red)

All cocks are red colored and 50% of the hens are red colored (50% of the hens are blue colored).

So in this case if you had 2 red birds mated together all blue birds are hens.
But if you never get any blue birds at all the cock is (red, red) instead of being (red, blue) and this wouldn't work.

Originally Posted by zimmzimm3

How do you know which birds to breed to which birds to make the babies come out sex linked?

Sex-linked means that the alleles (mutated genes) are on the sex chromosomes which is why the number of "copies" or alleles is different between cocks and hens. The sexes have different chromosomes (xx and xy in humans). In birds it is the Z chromosome ...but that can get confusing....as opposed to 2 copies or alleles on every other chromosome. Which is referred to as autosomal.

I think you mean how to make them auto-sexing? You want to be able to tell what sex they are by what color they are?

Easy->Mate a red hen and a blue cock

Offspring: all cocks are red and all hens are blue

This works with any pattern: T-pattern,bars,checks, etc... or autosomal mutation: spread, grizzle, etc...
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Hen (red) x Cock (blue, blue)

F1-> Hens (blue), Cocks (red, blue)= red colored
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You could also do a:

Blue or red colored hen with a brown colored cock

Hen (blue/Red) x Cock (brown, brown)

F1-> Hen (brown), Cocks (brown, Blue/red)= blue or red colored depending on females coloring

But brown is pretty uncommon in racing pigeons. If you had 2 blue birds paired and got some brown offspring those would all be hens. But again only 50% of the hens. Blue offspring wouldn't tell you anything.
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Originally Posted by Matt D.

No pencil on a blue bar. On the entire wing at the bottom of each wing feather ,short of the blue bars, are darkened at the edge.

It looks like it is dominant and NOT sex-linked then

[Margarret]

Aaron's world,

Thank you so much. That was an excellent explanation. I've been looking at genetic stuff for awhile now, but am just beginning to get some of it. I'm glad you used the blue/red for the examples as I just paired a black teager Show Flight cock with a red self hen. As I understand it black and blue are the same thing. I know the white is something else, not necessarily sex linked. Anyhow, am hoping for a red cock from this pair. I'll probably get a black teager hen as I'm pretty sure the cock is homo for blue. He is the grandson of a pair of black teagers and I bred his father as well. None of the offspring have shown any color but the black/white.

Welcome to Pigeon Talk!

Margaret

[TAWhatley]

Thank you, Aaronsworld and welcome to Pigeon-Talk! Be prepared to get bombarded with genetic questions!

Terry

[PigeonMan51]

ok so if i got a red cock and bule bar hen and it gives me a red cock and a checkerd{i dont no what it sex was b/e the cat eat it}what dose that mean how dose that work {

Originally Posted by AaronsWorld

I can try.

The thought process you should have is to think of the male and female offspring separately and just look at what each parent gives to the mating individually.

When you hear sex-linked you should be thinking about counting numbers of copies (1 or 2) of a particular mutation each parent gives.

With most mutations this is always the same number. This number is 2. One per chromosome. For sex-linked it is a little different. Not much. Males are still the same with 2 but females only have one copy.

I assume you can understand the "normal" non-sexlinked (autosomal) patterns of inheritance and what dominant and recessive means so I will not confuse you by talking about them right now.

I use the word "copy" or allele interchangeably. I mean copy of a type of mutation on a chromosome. It sounds easier to me without the big words...

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When you are looking at some sex-linked characteristic (like color-> feather pigmentation) you should immediately know or tell yourself, "males get 2 copies, females only get 1 copy" (opposite of humans). Thats the ONLY difference between "normal" mutations and sex-linked mutations.

The important point about this is that any thing that is sexlinked will show up in the female since she only gets one copy. It doesn't matter whether it is dominant or recessive. They only have one copy to use and one copy to give. The female is the special case.

Males get 2 copies so thats when you need to look at whether it is dominant or recessive. The male can hide a recessive copy (allele) and not show it. This is exactly the same as for "normal" mutations. Nothing special. Again I am assuming you can understand the normal autosomal patterns of inheritance.

The other important point is that you separate the male and female offspring and treat them as 2 separate crosses.
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I will walk you through an example. Very small baby steps...

We have a sex linked trait- color. We mate 2 birds together. Since we want babies we choose a cock and a hen (I know in this day and age there are other choices available but we want a "natural mating").

Lets mate a blue cock and a red hen.

once again,

cocks=male, 2 copies
hen=female, 1 copy

so know we just look at what copies each has to "give".

The male has 2 copies of blue (lets just assume he always gives blue babies with blue hens as a mate, i.e. no brown and we don't have to worry about dominant/recessive yet).

so the cock is (blue, blue) still with me????

the hen only has ONE copy..... red so that makes her (red)

When we mate them the cock will always give one of his blue copies. Always. (blue)

The hen will give her (red) when the baby is a male (blue, red). Why a male baby?

Because males get 2 copies. One from each parent. Like this->(something from dad, something from mom)

When the baby is a female: the hen doesn't give anything (not technically true but as far as color is concerned it is). Like this-> (something from dad)
---
so for hen chicks: one (blue) from dad, nothing from mom
which makes them (blue). They will be blue colored. Always.
---
The cock chicks will be (blue, red). One copy (allele) from each of the parents. a blue from the dad and a red from the mom. So we need to know which is dominant to know what they will look like.
---
The red color is dominant to the blue.

So since these male chicks have one copy of red they will be red colored.
---
So we figured out that we get red cocks and blue hens. Always. We also know that all the cocks have a blue copy in them which we cant see. They will look red.

Can you follow this? If so then you can figure out any sexlinked crosses. As long as you remember males=2, females=1.

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For example the next cross is easy if we mate these offspring. cock (blue, red) x hen (red)

cocks will give either a (blue) or a (red) and the hen will only give a (red) to a male (son) (remember the 2 copies? nothing from mom to daughter).

so for hens they will get all the information from dad. nothing from mom. (why? hens=1 copy and they are already getting one from the dad)

so the offspring are: 50% (red) and (50% blue)

that was easy so now we can do the cocks:
the cocks will ALWAYS get a (red) from the mom, since thats all she has to give to the mating. Just one copy.

and they will get either a (blue) or a (red) from the dad.

so that means the cocks will be:

50 % (red, red) or 50% (blue, red)

since red is dominant the (blue, red) birds will look red and the (red, red) birds will obviously look red.

so to repeat the results from a (blue, red) x (red) we get

Hens: 50% blue birds and %50 red birds.

hens are (blue) or (Red)

Cocks: 100% red colored birds

cocks are (red, red) or (blue, Red) but we cant see any different since red is dominant to the blue.
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I understand that this example is more confusing but if you could follow along on the first example it is the same process. We just look at what the dad gives and if the mom gives anything or not.

Since dad=2, mom =1. The sons get one copy from mom and one from dad=2, while the daughters only get one from dad=1. ALWAYS.

[TAWhatley]

Kindly watch the comments about the "cat ate it" that won't fly here .. if you can't keep your birds safe from cats and other predators, then you've got a problem here.

Terry

[PigeonMan51]

sorry about the cat and pigeon thing i did not tell you the hole story I had been trapping my birds and well this same bird was the last one in and it was just the bad one in the bunch well i let them all out and they all whent in but this one time he did not trap well i had to go but it dark and whent stay on the ground insted of staying on the loft and the next day it was gone just a bunch of feathers

[PigeonMan51]

ok so if this pair is a red cock and a blue bar hen what is the colors i can get of them like i have gotin a red cock and a chechered

[Matt D.]

Originally Posted by PigeonMan51

sorry about the cat and pigeon thing i did not tell you the hole story I had been trapping my birds and well this same bird was the last one in and it was just the bad one in the bunch well i let them all out and they all whent in but this one time he did not trap well i had to go but it dark and whent stay on the ground insted of staying on the loft and the next day it was gone just a bunch of feathers

There aren't bad pigeons just bad trainers. It was your resposibility to take care of you and yours.

Oh, and there isn't an h in went.

[AaronsWorld]

Originally Posted by PigeonMan51

ok so if i got a red cock and blue bar hen and it gives me a red cock and a checkered{i don't no what it sex was b/e the cat eat it}what dose that mean how dose that work {

So you have a mating between red colored cock and a blue bar hen. They give you a red bar cock and a blue? check for offspring. not sure about this so I have included 2 possibilities.

Well from your information I know that the male was checkered and the female was barred. You did not say it was a check but that is the only way for it to be since it is a dominant trait (only one copy is needed in a bird) and the young showed this pattern. I am not sure whether the offspring was a red bar or a blue check or not... so I have done a generic example following these assumptions.

Possible combinations according to what you have:

100% red colored birds and 50% Checkered, 50% barred birds

50% red colored birds and 50% blue colored birds, 50% Checkered and 50% barred birds

Obviously 50% of these are hens and 50% are cocks .

Below is why
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So you have two different things going on here: color and pattern.
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The color is sex-linked. The pattern is not. You treat them separately. Like this:

Color:

#1.cock (red, red) x hen (blue)
or
#2.cock (red, blue) x hen (blue)

You do not know at this point whether the red cock is homozygous (#1, 2 copies of red) or heterozygous (#2, one red one blue).

#1)
F1-> genotype
cocks: 50% (red, red) or 50% (red, blue)
hens: 100% (red)

Phenotype
cocks: 100% red colored birds
hens: 100% red colored birds

#2
F1-> genotype
cocks: 50% (red, blue) or 50% (blue, blue)
hens: 50% (red) or 50% (blue)


Phenotype
cocks: 50% red colored birds and 50% blue colored birds
hens: 50% red colored birds and 50% blue colored birds

*since red is dominant, the (red,blue) cocks will look red colored.

So if you bred this pair enough times you would be able to tell whether the red colored cock bird was heterozygous (red, blue) or homozygous (red, red).
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Now the second part: pattern

Checkered is dominant to barred. And this trait is NOT sex-linked. I have shown it for both sexes but you don't need to for autosomal alleles.

We have a checkered cock and a bar hen. Or

#1 cock (Checkered, Checkered) x hen (bar, bar)
or
#2 cock (Checkered, bar) x hen (bar, bar)

You do not know at this point whether the red cock is homozygous (#1, 2 copies of checkered) or heterozygous (#2, one checkered, one bar).

#1)
F1-> genotype
cocks: 100% (Checkered, bar)
hens: 100% (Checkered, bar)

Phenotype
cocks: 100% checkered birds
hens: 100% checkered birds

#2
F1-> genotype
cocks: 50% (Checkered, bar) or 50% (bar, bar)
hens: 50% (Checkered, bar) or 50% (bar, bar)


Phenotype
cocks: 50% Checkered birds and 50% barred birds
hens: 50% Checkered birds and 50% barred birds

*since Checkered is dominant, the (Checkered,bar) birds will look checkered in all sexes.

So if you bred this pair enough times you would be able to tell whether the red colored cock bird was heterozygous (Checkered,bar) or homozygous (Checkered, Checkered). i. e. If all offspring were checkered, no matter the color, the cock would be homozygous. It sounds like you got one of each so that means your cock bird was heterozygous (Checkered,bar).
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So to summarize you would get from a mating of:

A red colored checkered cock and a blue colored barred hen:

either: 100% red colored birds or
50% red colored birds and 50% blue colored birds
and 100% checkered birds or
50% Checkered and 50% barred

Possible combinations:

100% red colored birds and 100% checkered birds
100% red colored birds and 50% Checkered, 50% barred birds

50% red colored birds and 50% blue colored birds, 100% checkered birds
50% red colored birds and 50% blue colored birds, 50% Checkered and 50% barred birds

Obviously 50% of these are hens and 50% are cocks .

If you know what a few clutches were then you can narrow down which one it will be. For example you would only get the red highlighted possibilities from your mating since you get 50/50 bar/check.

[AaronsWorld]

Originally Posted by Margarret

Aaron's world,

Thank you so much. That was an excellent explanation. I've been looking at genetic stuff for awhile now, but am just beginning to get some of it. I'm glad you used the blue/red for the examples as I just paired a black teager Show Flight cock with a red self hen. As I understand it black and blue are the same thing. I know the white is something else, not necessarily sex linked. Anyhow, am hoping for a red cock from this pair. I'll probably get a black teager hen as I'm pretty sure the cock is homo for blue. He is the grandson of a pair of black teagers and I bred his father as well. None of the offspring have shown any color but the black/white.

Welcome to Pigeon Talk!

Margaret

By breeding these birds you will get 100% heterozygous for recessive red. These will not look red. You have to mate these back to the female or to each other to get a homozygous recessive red or self red bird. Good luck!

mating (+,+) x (e, e)

F1-> 100% (+, e)

[Margarret]

Originally Posted by AaronsWorld

By breeding these birds you will get 100% heterozygous for recessive red. These will not look red. You have to mate these back to the female or to each other to get a homozygous recessive red or self red bird. Good luck!

mating (+,+) x (e, e)

F1-> 100% (+, e)

Ok, I'm confused. I thought that the red was dominant to the blue. Since the hen doesn't pass on her red to the female offspring, this bird should be blue. But the male will be blue, red, +,e and red is dominant. Or isn't it in this case?

Margaret

[AaronsWorld]

Originally Posted by Margarret

Ok, I'm confused. I thought that the red was dominant to the blue. Since the hen doesn't pass on her red to the female offspring, this bird should be blue. But the male will be blue, red, +,e and red is dominant. Or isn't it in this case?

Margaret

Ya sorry I did not have a chance to explain that very much since I was hurrying to dinner.

In the case of self red (homozygous for recessive red) this will actually mask any color pigment the bird has normally in the same way that white will. They (red and recessive red) are 2 totally separate mutations at different places that just happen to be confusing since they both refer to red. They are completely different though.

For example a self red bird can be blue or red underneath the self red. This will actually cover up what the birds "real" color is. The reason for this is that the location for this gene is at a completely different location than where the gene for feather pigmentation is. It is NOT sex-linked like feather pigmentation is. It is on a completely different chromosome.

So you need 2 copies of this allele (e) in order for it to show up. Each sex has 2 copies of this and can give either one in a mating. It is recessive.

The (+) symbol just means the normal allele which is dominant to the mutation (e). This is why you need 2 copies of the defective mutation or (e,e). If you have one working copy then feather pigmentation is carried out normally according to those alleles (which are located on the sex chromosomes and are sex-linked).

check this out for some more info->
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/red.html

[Margarret]

Originally Posted by AaronsWorld

Ya sorry I did not have a chance to explain that very much since I was hurrying to dinner.

In the case of self red (homozygous for recessive red) this will actually mask any color pigment the bird has normally in the same way that white will. They (red and recessive red) are 2 totally separate mutations at different places that just happen to be confusing since they both refer to red. They are completely different though.

For example a self red bird can be blue or red underneath the self red. This will actually cover up what the birds "real" color is. The reason for this is that the location for this gene is at a completely different location than where the gene for feather pigmentation is. It is NOT sex-linked like feather pigmentation is. It is on a completely different chromosome.

So you need 2 copies of this allele (e) in order for it to show up. Each sex has 2 copies of this and can give either one in a mating. It is recessive.

The (+) symbol just means the normal allele which is dominant to the mutation (e). This is why you need 2 copies of the defective mutation or (e,e). If you have one working copy then feather pigmentation is carried out normally according to those alleles (which are located on the sex chromosomes and are sex-linked).

check this out for some more info->
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/red.html

ArronsWorld,

thank you. I need to go back to the books. I really appreciate your taking the time to explain this. Looks like my hen could pass on almost anything. I'll find out soon. Show flights aren't bred for too many colors
so I doubt there will be much in the way of surprises.

Margaret

[AaronsWorld]

Your welcome. If there is any red offspring (the cocks) then you know that she has red in her (#1). If this is not the case she will be blue (#2). She could have brown, but most likely has blue. All the hens will be blue from the cock as it sounds like he is homozygous (blue, blue) and doesn't have any recessive red genes.

Case #1 red in the hen
Cock (B,B)(+,+) x hen ( Red)(e, e)

F1->
Cocks: (B,Red)(+,e)
Hens: (B)(+,e)

These birds will have all have one copy of the recessive red, the cocks will be red colored and the hens will be blue colored.

Case number #2 no red in the hen
Cock (B,B)(+,+) x hen ( B/b?)(e, e)

F1->
Cocks: (B,B)(+,e) or (B,b)(+,e)
Hens: (B)(+,e)

This gives you all young with blue/black pigment, and one copy of the recessive red.

I made the cocks alleles green and the hens orange just to help you keep track of who gives each part to the mating.

I am not sure what other genes are involved in making a black teager show flight. But I would suspect that the mutation ->Spread is in there as well. Maybe someone knows what mutations are present?

[Margarret]

Aaronsworld,

I understand it now. I might know if my hen is carrying R if I get a cock with any red. The only other option would be if my cock has an e hidden in there (which I seriously doubt). My hen came from Sal Gigante's loft. This is he first time I've bred her. The cock is the grandson of a bird that took first place in his class at the NPA show when it was in Calif two years ago. I'm hoping for some nice offspring from them. If my hen is carrying B, I'm assuming that ee is dominant to the sex linked color since her phenotype is red. I don't know either what the teager/tiger genetics are.

Boy it's been a looooong time since I've had to think in these terms. But it's coming back allbeit slowly. My first time it was humans, not pigeons, I was trying to figure out in a physiology class. Thank you again for taking the time to write all that out for me. As Terry said, you are going to be swamped with genetic questions. What birds do you have? Are you working on any specific colors or traits in your birds?

Margaret

Margaret

Margaret