OvoControl

[erickwolf]

If considering the merits of OvoControl, as the manufacturer, we have an obligation to weigh in on this conversation. Believe what you will, but our intent is to provide a safe and effective product for the contraception of birds. There are just two ways to manage a population of pigeons – a) increase mortality, or, b) reduce reproduction. For decades, commercial operations and government have focused on the former – better trapping techniques, more toxic poisons and even shooting. When we started this business, we figured that contraception for pigeons was just common sense, a humane method to reduce the burden for industrial or municipal sites plagued by too many birds.

Despite what some are saying, OvoControl is not toxic – not to pigeons, not to other birds, not to mammals and not to the environment. Originally developed by Merck, nicarbazin, the active ingredient in OvoControl, has been used in the poultry industry to prevent coccidiosis for more than half a century. It is perfectly safe and we are happy to share the data that supports this statement with anyone with an open mind.

The comments in this thread including a relationship with Ornitrol (diazacon), hormonal blocking action, anti-statins, muscle tremors, etc. are in no way related to OvoControl. We have no problem defending the science that support our products and will respond in a timely manner to any reasonable questions or concerns. There is a wealth of information included on the website (www.ovocontrol.com), including many technical details.

If your choice is to use a pigeon loft to mitigate feral pigeons, by all means, please do so. That said, there are others in the market that prefer alternative solutions. Our objective is to simply provide a contraceptive tool to manage birds without having to resort to methods that do not provide a long-term or sustainable solution.

[lindylou]

I want to know why you are trying SO HARD to convince us all here on Pigeon-Talk of the safety of your product, Erick. You are on an avid PR run here but the reality of it is, Erick that only TIME AND LONG-TERM USE of your product is going to prove or disprove it's value, okay. It is only my opinion, which I have a right to state, of course, and you can do with it as you will that you want a blind faith in your product and in the proper use of it by a public that has a very negative preception of the pigeon in the first place. You will get that sort of blind faith from many here and in the public forum who are baffled by the science of it all and have child-like trust in science. But like it or not, it will take time to prove the worth of OvoControl, just as it did with Ornitrol. We heard the same reasssurances from the makers of Ornitrol by G.D. Searle when it was given the green light, and I am sure that many who developed the science of it did indeed want to come up with a humane form of pigeon control. At first, it all looked great, but we also know what happened. Pigeons showing up totally sterile with little or no reproductive organs. Permanent and irreversal. There really is no way that you can give a gaurantee that OvoControl will not produce its share of problems, even though perhaps not as severe or widespead as those that Ornitrol displayed. Now, I realize that you probably will not want someone like me digging up these facts as a reminder from the past that caution should be the call of the day. You obviously feel confident in your product and that the negative consequences of past birth control products has no bearing on your product. And it may well be that OvoControl will prove itself safe and effective. Wonderful. We pigeon advocates and lovers ALL WANT THAT. But for me and many of us who care, we will continue to advise caution and a "wait and see" attitude before we will endorse the use of OvoControl. I hope you are right, Erick and that we have something worthwhile here in it's use. We will see.

[erickwolf]

We should all keep the facts in mind,

1) the active ingredient in OvoControl, nicarbazin, has been around for more than a half century and used extensively in the poultry industry, all over the world. The quantity used in chickens dwarfs what will ever be used in pigeons.

2) OvoControl has been applied in different bird species for 8 years....5 years in pigeons. Should this not be considered long-term for feral pigeons?

3) While Ornitrol (diazacon) was originally developed by GD Searle as a male contraceptive, it was brought to market by Avitrol, the same company that makes the product by the same name. Ornitrol did not last long as most users were unwilling to wait for the sterilizing effect to impact the population. As you correctly outline, as a steroid hormone, the compound also had many side-effects and serious environmental risk.

4) Ornitrol was a sterilant -- OvoControl is a contraceptive. The effects of the former are irreversible -- the latter is reversible. There is a world of difference between the two.

Again, I suggest anyone reading this post to review the technical details on the OvoControl website. It contains a wealth of data. If you still have questions we would be delighted to address them.

[NZ Pigeon]

Originally Posted by lindylou

To see how it works you can go to U-Tube and watch the video PIGEONS IN THE CITY. It is quite long (15 minutes) but well worth watching.

Thanks for that, Good video. I love seeing ferals in different countries.

[lindylou]

Originally Posted by erickwolf

We should all keep the facts in mind,

1) the active ingredient in OvoControl, nicarbazin, has been around for more than a half century and used extensively in the poultry industry, all over the world. The quantity used in chickens dwarfs what will ever be used in pigeons.

Be more specific. Dwarfs what will ever be used in pigeons? Says who, and in what concrete study?? To say that would be like a vet saying give the same dosage to a large parrot as you would a chick-a-dee - why not, they are afterall, both BIRDS. As for nicarb. being around over 60 years and used to treat cocci in chickens and put fat on them, nebulous argument that it should work the same in a pigeon which is different in size and DNA and RNA

2) OvoControl has been applied in different bird species for 8 years....5 years in pigeons. Should this not be considered long-term for feral pigeons?

But in what type of setting? A lab setting does not accurately depict the environment of a feral pigeon on the move, mixing and intermingling with other flocks, which can corrupt the data. Also OvoControl has not been used on a grand scale as yet. We keep going back to the issue of time being the best revealer, eh?

3) While Ornitrol (diazacon) was originally developed by GD Searle as a male contraceptive, it was brought to market by Avitrol, the same company that makes the product by the same name. Ornitrol did not last long as most users were unwilling to wait for the sterilizing effect to impact the population. As you correctly outline, as a steroid hormone, the compound also had many side-effects and serious environmental risk.

4) Ornitrol was a sterilant -- OvoControl is a contraceptive. The effects of the former are irreversible -- the latter is reversible. There is a world of difference between the two.

Unfortunately, effective and total "reversibility" has not get been proven to attain with OVERDOSING. You will say that overdosing because of cost is not likely, but if approved, generic brands of OvoControl may well make it very affordible. You have stated that 99% of the product would be dispended by way of automatic feeders installed on the roof, with no monitoring necessary, but perhaps a visit to the site 1ce a month. Well, the amount you recommend as safe is 0.5%, (many people do not know that is 1/2 of 1%, no idea whatsoever) with an LD50 of 10,0000 mg/kg (this is Greek, isn't it???), boy if a little is good, than lots more must be better! Many out there think this way, Erick.

Again, I suggest anyone reading this post to review the technical details on the OvoControl website. It contains a wealth of data. If you still have questions we would be delighted to address them.

I am sure, thank you,

[Bella_F]

Thanks Erick for the information, I've been meaning to look into this product more deeply and I found the information provided by yourself and Lindy-Lou to be interesting.

OvoControl is not toxic – not to pigeons, not to other birds, not to mammals and not to the environment.

Whilst toxicity is a major concern for other wildlife that ingest the ovocontrol, its not the only concern. I personally wouldn't use ovocontrol whilst the following concerns are unresolved:

1. Overdosing. Can the hatchlings/chicks of raptors and other birds that consume ovocontrol via dead pigeons overdose from this, considering the weight of a hatchling may be 10 grams or so? Can ovocontrol cause growth defects in hatchlings? Was the effect on hatchlings studied, and if so was it studied in birds such as raptors that have different physiology, diets, and eating patterns to chickens (ie raptors tend to gorge and eat once a week or so as opposed to limited regular daily feeds)? And what are the effects on owls & their chicks, which do not have crops?

2. Ovocontrol prevents reproduction in wild species of birds that feed on ovocontrol or pigeons. This is a major issue to me because, unlike culling, which effects a population only temporarily, preventing reproduction in a species of bird can effectively cause local or general extinction. We've seen it here in Australia in Perth, where the White Ibis was almost annialated when eggs were made unviable for several years in order to control population.

The problem with ovocontrol is there is no control over what species ingest it regularly. It could be assumed that raptors will definitely be one of its victims.

At my place, if the raptors who own this territory stopped breeding successfully because of ovocontrol, the pigeon population would boom out of control, worse than it was before.

[almondman]

The opinions expressed below are my personal feelings about this thread, and in no way reflect that of PT., the other moderators, or administrators.

Bella - thank you for the civility of your post. A few others have been a little bit over the top.

Please, whether we agree with lindylou, or not, let's remember that the basic concept of this compound is to provide a way to control pigeon populations. I think we all agree that there needs to be an alternative to poisoning, shooting, trapping, and other lethal methods of accomplishing this.

Most, if not all, drugs go through years of testing, both in the lab, and in field trials. It is not a guarantee that some drugs will not still cause unforeseen problems that may make"the cure worse than the disease". But this happens rarely. We need to be willing to give Mr. Wolf and his product a chance to prove it's worth.

Bella, along with lindylou, brought up several concerns that Mr. Wolf should be willing to address. But if this product is still in development, he may not be willing to give out proprietary information until the drug has been thoroughly tested. Competiton between drug companies is very cut throat and giving out the wrong information at the wrong time could cost a company billions. Sad to say, all drug companies, no matter what drug they are developing, are, bottom line, in it for the profits. But is this a bad thing if they give us a drug that really works?

I think that everyone here wants to hear the answers to the questions raised. But making personal attacks against Mr Wolf is only causing hard feelings. And not giving him a chance to respond to the questions and allegations is unfair. And please, keep in mind that he may not be able to, or want to, answer our questions at this time. Some of the questions asked, as much as we feel we need answers, may not be any of our business until after the product has been given its chance to show it's stuff.

I agree that there are many concerns with this product. But we need to address our concerns in a civil manner, without personal attacks, or making statements that haven't been proven as yet. Both sides need to understand the concerns of the other. If, after all is said and done, this product is a failure, or causes other species to suffer, I will be in the front lines to get it pulled from the market.

[Charis]

Many of the answers, to the questions asked, are in this link...

http://ovocontrol.com/pigeons/faqs/

[almondman]

Thank you Charis. This answers a lot of questions. I see that these questions and answers are posted by the manufacturer. If these answers are to be believed, this product isn't all that bad, ?????

[Charis]

Originally Posted by almondman

Thank you Charis. This answers a lot of questions. I see that these questions and answers are posted by the manufacturer. If these answers are to be believed, this product isn't all that bad, ?????

I KNOW! ......

[Bella_F]

Thanks for the link to the FAQ.

After having read it, I am personally still very uncomfortable with the following:

1. the way this drug would impact on native pigeons, doves & other wild birds that directly eat the bait.

2. the high frequency of use required for the drug to be effective (ie dispersing it for many consecutive days produces a much greater chance of ingestion by other species)

3.the fact that the effect on mammals that eat the bait is not yet studied.

4. There are fairly stringent laws against killing native animals around the world via poisoning, so any attempt to poison feral pigeons by councils would be very carefully monitored & controlled. I would imagine this care would not be taken by councils using ovovcontrol, as the extinction of other species (local or general) due to inability to reproduce, would be indirect, rather than direct. There are currently no laws to protect any native species that would be adversely affected or made extinct by ovocontrol, whereas with poisons, there are.


If this was used where I lived, then the following species would also be at risk of having their populations reduced (or eliminated):

- all grainivore native pigeons such as crested pigeons, bar shouldered dove, peaceful doves, pied imperial pigeons, brown cuckoo doves, wonga pigeons etc (about a dozen species that will eat with feral pigeons )
- all native crows, ravens, & corvids
- Australian magpies (normally insectivores but will readily eat pellets , bread, and bird seed)
- pied butcherbirds
- larger honeyeaters such as noisy minors
- Ibis
- some species of duck (the black duck eats mainly on the ground, but the wood ducks are more likely to eat on a roof)

I believe this would cause rapid local extinction of some of these birds such as magpies and butcherbirds, as they consist mainly of just one adult pair of birds who rely on one or two generations of young to protect their territory ie. no babies = can't successfully defend their territory=no habitat.

I guess I'm cooling towards the idea the more I read about it, knowing it will affect many native species of pigeons and other birds, not just feral pigeons.

[lindylou]

Originally Posted by Bella_F

Thanks Erick for the information, I've been meaning to look into this product more deeply and I found the information provided by yourself and Lindy-Lou to be interesting.



Whilst toxicity is a major concern for other wildlife that ingest the ovocontrol, its not the only concern. I personally wouldn't use ovocontrol whilst the following concerns are unresolved:

1. Overdosing. Can the hatchlings/chicks of raptors and other birds that consume ovocontrol via dead pigeons overdose from this, considering the weight of a hatchling may be 10 grams or so? Can ovocontrol cause growth defects in hatchlings? Was the effect on hatchlings studied, and if so was it studied in birds such as raptors that have different physiology, diets, and eating patterns to chickens (ie raptors tend to gorge and eat once a week or so as opposed to limited regular daily feeds)? And what are the effects on owls & their chicks, which do not have crops?

2. Ovocontrol prevents reproduction in wild species of birds that feed on ovocontrol or pigeons. This is a major issue to me because, unlike culling, which effects a population only temporarily, preventing reproduction in a species of bird can effectively cause local or general extinction. We've seen it here in Australia in Perth, where the White Ibis was almost annialated when eggs were made unviable for several years in order to control population.

The problem with ovocontrol is there is no control over what species ingest it regularly. It could be assumed that raptors will definitely be one of its victims.

At my place, if the raptors who own this territory stopped breeding successfully because of ovocontrol, the pigeon population would boom out of control, worse than it was before.

Well said, Bella, I stand not alone......

[lindylou]

Originally Posted by NZ Pigeon

Thanks for that, Good video. I love seeing ferals in different countries.

Glad you enjoyed it. So sad to see how the preception about pigeons right up until the early '60's was good; then we decided we don't want or need them, this after thousands of years of providing us with enjoyment and service. LOL

[NZ Pigeon]

Originally Posted by lindylou

Glad you enjoyed it. So sad to see how the preception about pigeons right up until the early '60's was good; then we decided we don't want or need them, this after thousands of years of providing us with enjoyment and service. LOL

Television and video games..... even computers and internet are partly to blame, Who needs pigeons for enjoyment nowadays. Its a shame, Don't get me wrong the internet and T.V. can be great learning tools aswell as a great way to promote pigeons and in the case of PT save many pigeons lives but these modern day forms of entertainment have taken away from making fun with nature...more so pigeons.

When we had the deadly Earthquake here in ChCh last year I had no power for around 10 days, People in the neighbourhood were getting bored but I could still fly my pigeon kits and I guess in the nicest way possible I got the last laugh from the neighbours that give me a little bit of flack for the pigeons. All in good fun though.

Off topic sorry.

[Skyeking]

Originally Posted by almondman

I think that everyone here wants to hear the answers to the questions raised. But making personal attacks against Mr Wolf is only causing hard feelings. And not giving him a chance to respond to the questions and allegations is unfair. And please, keep in mind that he may not be able to, or want to, answer our questions at this time. Some of the questions asked, as much as we feel we need answers, may not be any of our business until after the product has been given its chance to show it's stuff.

I agree that there are many concerns with this product. But we need to address our concerns in a civil manner, without personal attacks, or making statements that haven't been proven as yet. Both sides need to understand the concerns of the other. If, after all is said and done, this product is a failure, or causes other species to suffer, I will be in the front lines to get it pulled from the market.

Any personal attack made against any member on this forum is a violation of forum rules.