Slow crop or overfeeding?

[pink68112]

I have a 2(?) week old baby pidgeon that was abandoned in its nest about a week ago (his sibling had died in the nest and parents disappeared). Through the support of this board, I have built him a nest with a heating bad and I've been hand feeding him.

I am concerned because it seems like his crop emptying has slowed down in the last 24 hours. I have read about this on the board and there are no odors around his beak and the inside of his mouth looks pink and healthy.

Specifically, today he was fed about 20 mL of Gerber's turkey and rice at 4:30pm. At 11:30 pm, crop seemed to have emptied only slightly (less than 20-25% reduction). Tonight I took about 1.5 cups of water and added three drops of apple cider vinegar and mixed, then fed him 3 mL of this solution via the syringe. I also added one drop of the ACV to 5 mL of the baby food and fed it to him tonight (now I realize maybe not a good idea but he seemed frantic about wanting food).

He seems to have an insatiable appetite and even when his crop is full he cheeps and pecks at my appendages frantically wanting food.

His poops have not stopped completely but seem to have been reduced in number by about 40% in the last 24 hours.

Also, I would say his activity level has dropped about 30% (ie-usually cheeped and moved about his box a good amount of the time but now only seems to cheep or move when he sees me, then becomes frantic because anticipates a feeding).

Here are my questions:

1. Is it possible that this is due to overfeeding? He seems to always want food even when crop is full or semi full. He gets about 25 ml in the morning, another 10 mL four hours later, another 20-25 mL 4 hours later, and another 20-25 about 5 hours later. He would eat more if I would allow him to but I am going based on his crop now instead of his interest in the food.

2. I have read about the usefulness of probiotics. Would a human probiotic supplement be suitable (I already have in capsule form, I could break capsule open and dissolve in food or water)?

3. Could this be because I am not diluting his food enough? Lately I have been feeding him the baby food straight up without mixing with water (I figured it was more nutritionally dense for baby...). Could it be because the food is not being served at a warm enough temperature (slightly above room temperature)?

Thanks again for everything!!

[Charis]

Are you allowing the crop to empty completely between feedings?

[pink68112]

Previously I was but in the last 24 hours I haven't been because he still seems to be frantic for food. I still feed him when the crop is not empty but I am mindful of not stuffing the crop.

[TAWhatley]

The "franticness" is not necessarily because the youngster is hungry. Baby pigeons just go "frantic" whenever they see or hear the food source .. you could have fed the little one to bursting full and if you left and returned 5 minutes later, you would likely get the "frantic" act again .. it's just their nature The "frantic" act is as much about getting attention as it is about getting food especially when the crop is full.

I'd opt for feeding only when the crop is empty or nearly so. If you suspect the crop slowing at this point, then go with lots of fluid with a bit of ACV. Do be sure you are CAREFULLY monitoring the crop. Make sure there isn't a big residue of food building up in the very bottom of the crop. This is easy to miss and can be very dangerous.

Terry

[Charis]

You have to let the crop empty between feedings.Adding more food to old food that isn't emptying, is creating bacteria heaven. I also think that you need to invest in EXACT hand feeding formula. It can be purchased at most pet stores.
I've sent a PM to Victor because he is in your area and may be able to help.

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by pink68112

I have a 2(?) week old baby pidgeon that was abandoned in its nest about a week ago (his sibling had died in the nest and parents disappeared). Through the support of this board, I have built him a nest with a heating bad and I've been hand feeding him.

I am concerned because it seems like his crop emptying has slowed down in the last 24 hours. I have read about this on the board and there are no odors around his beak and the inside of his mouth looks pink and healthy.

Specifically, today he was fed about 20 mL of Gerber's turkey and rice at 4:30pm. At 11:30 pm, crop seemed to have emptied only slightly (less than 20-25% reduction). Tonight I took about 1.5 cups of water and added three drops of apple cider vinegar and mixed, then fed him 3 mL of this solution via the syringe. I also added one drop of the ACV to 5 mL of the baby food and fed it to him tonight (now I realize maybe not a good idea but he seemed frantic about wanting food).


He seems to have an insatiable appetite and even when his crop is full he cheeps and pecks at my appendages frantically wanting food.

His poops have not stopped completely but seem to have been reduced in number by about 40% in the last 24 hours.

Also, I would say his activity level has dropped about 30% (ie-usually cheeped and moved about his box a good amount of the time but now only seems to cheep or move when he sees me, then becomes frantic because anticipates a feeding).

Here are my questions:

1. Is it possible that this is due to overfeeding? He seems to always want food even when crop is full or semi full. He gets about 25 ml in the morning, another 10 mL four hours later, another 20-25 mL 4 hours later, and another 20-25 about 5 hours later. He would eat more if I would allow him to but I am going based on his crop now instead of his interest in the food.

2. I have read about the usefulness of probiotics. Would a human probiotic supplement be suitable (I already have in capsule form, I could break capsule open and dissolve in food or water)?

3. Could this be because I am not diluting his food enough? Lately I have been feeding him the baby food straight up without mixing with water (I figured it was more nutritionally dense for baby...). Could it be because the food is not being served at a warm enough temperature (slightly above room temperature)?

Thanks again for everything!!

Hi Pink,


This is entirely a wrong kind of food and it is poisoning his system...and at least some of his franticness is likely from his being very mal-nourished by being fed this sort of thing...

Whether or not his Crop emtpys in a timely way, please, do some reading or research for getting about feeding him appropriate foods.


Even the right kinds of food need to be liquidy-soupy, and or for Water to additionally be offered between meals.


Sub-therapudic ACV-Water can be made by the Gallon, or the Quart, and would be used for formula mixing as well as drinking between meals.

Figure two and a half Tablespoons to the Gallon...


Please get some real foods for this Baby before it is too late, and cease useing anything remotely like these jars of 'people baby food'...


K-T, available at any pet supply store, is fine...get some small whole Seeds also, such as Finch Seeds or Canary Seeds...add these together in a little cup...while there get a tube of 'Nutrical' ( on the puppy kitten isle) and add a three inch squig of that...add enough Water for it all to be covered about 3/8ths of an inch of clear Water on top...do NOT stirr...

Let sit in the frige an hour, covered...take out, stirr then...and stirr while you warm it in a pan of warm water so the food is your own body temp...do not use a microwave.

Add more Water if need be for arriving at the correct consistancy.

Formula then can be about 2/3rds K-T and 1/3 small whole Seeds...and with Water enough when done, to be 'soupy' like melted Ice Cream on a Summer day...


Serve at body temperature.


At two weeks, the Baby should be a little 'furnace' unless he is sick.

Hold him in your palm...if he is 'hot' he is no longer needing any heating pad and it in fact will be bad for him to be on one.



Good luck...


Phil
Las Vegas

[Feefo]

I am having the same problem with a rescue squeaker who must be 28 days old now. I have had him for a week and had to milk the crop initially as well as treat with ACV in the water, Spartrix (because the Flying Vet says that often canker causes slow crop) and Nystatin.

Last night he had his first real meal (30 ml of Kaytee) and the crop still hasn't emptied completely, although he has produced his first good poops since he has been here. I know just how difficult it is not to feed them when they seem so hungry but feeding on top of food that hasn't gone through just aggravates the problem.

I am not certain that the Kaytee isn't part of the problem. It goes off so quickly after it has been mixed that I worry that when the crop is slow it goes off in the crop faster than other foods.

I read somewhere that feeding stewed apple can help. Has anybody else heard of this, does it work?

Cynthia

[pdpbison]

Hi all....


I see the little peepers being raised by their feral parents here...and their little Crops are never empty, they remain not merely full, but so full the Babys can hardly stand.

The parents soon bring them just Water also, and allow them to have quite sloshyy Crops several times a day...and between those times, one can find, that their little Crops do in fact become firm and lacking in hydration...so, the parents ( and I also, with 'mine', ) provide 'drinks' between meals, as well as providing meals which are very 'slushy' to begin with.

Babys need plenty of Water.



The orphan Babys I have raised, and to whom I have fed my varying formulas...letting them eat out of the 'Nipple' as I do...I have never seen a slow Crop occur...and more and more with time, I tend to keep them filled up, even as their feral parents would have...if less so...but filled up anyway, so their Crops empty only over night, if even then.

The only slow Crops or Crop stasis I have seen in Babys or Youngsters, are those which were brought to me already that way or well into becomeing that way, which someone had been feeding one thing or another to, for a few days or a business week of their having them, till they induced it in the Baby or youngster...so that if fell to me to ammend it.


This when examined by experienced Avian Vets, was pronounced to be Candida...and from these occasions I learned to use the ACV-Water to address it.

I have never seen a slow Crop in a Baby or youngster from Canker, and I have had a great many who had Canker, and whose Crops and digestive system was still functioning wonderfully, and whose appetites remained good ( in all but the most conspicuous close-to-death-cases, which have been brought to me or I found only very rarely, ) .


I recall no Canker Babys or youngsters, even when seriously afflicted, who were not enthusiastic and eager eaters...even as they were subjected to the regimen for treating their illness.




It would seem to me that these frequent problems with people-raised Babys going down hill, Static or slow Crops, and other problems, come from some few basic things - and these few things are mostly involved in, and from -


Feeding them poorly prepaired and or wrong foods...and continueing to do it till the Bird wilts or sickens or dies.

Not allowing them adequate warmth for those ages which need it...and hence, feeding margainally 'chilled' Babys...and usually this means force-feeding them, too.

Feeding them merely, with whatever it is people feed them with, and without thought or consideration to their hydration needs otherwise, and getting them dehydrated by it...so, dehydration in addition to wrong and poorly prepaired food.

And...

Injuring in any of various ways, their Esophagus or Crop with invasive feeding impliments and methods...so they slowly go down hill and die of infections internally, or from internal bleeding or from whatever consequences the injury may bring.


Anyway...


Just some thoughts...

Phil
Las Vegas

[Trees Gray]

You have already gotten some excellent advice, all I can add is yes, you can open the cap of the probiotic and mix it well in the baby bird formula, it will help with motility and gut bacteria.

[Pidgey]

I'm not real excited about that diet either. However, I'm really wondering what method of feeding you're using. There is a condition called "aerophagia" where the baby's trying to suck the stuff down faster than it's actually coming and ends up getting air in the crop which doesn't go away very quickly. If poop is coming out the back end in a reasonable fashion and only slows down because the person doing the feeding slows down because of the fear of "slow crop" or "crop stasis", it can become a real problem. The less water that you use, the less poop you're going to get out of a baby.

Pidgey

[pink68112]

Thank you for all your prompt responses.

I'm feeling kind of bad like I haven't been doing a good job with this baby I do really care about him and I want to do what is right.

I got to PetsMart today as soon as it opened and bought the Kay-Tee Exact food for babies. I just fed the baby and his crop was totally empty (this feeding was much later than his usual AM feeding because I wanted to wait until I had the KT). I also added some probiotic (1/4 of the contents of a human capsule) and ACV (one drop) to the formula.

He seems to be doing better than last night. I will follow the advice about not feeding until his crop is empty and I will be watching him very carefully. I will keep you posted. Thank you again for everything!

[pink68112]

Also, about the feeding method I am using a 10 mL syringe. I know the balloon method is better but I tried it a few times and we just couldn't get the hang of it. But I did want to mention that baby seems to have really gotten used to using the syringe and it is extremely easy to get him to open his mouth and keep it open, and he does that rythmic thing with his neck which I take to mean things are going well. I will watch the issue with gulping air.

[Maggie-NC]

Hi Pink, thank you for the update. I'm glad things are better. How many cc's are you giving him at the time?

[Charis]

I know you care about the baby and are doing your best. If you didn't care, I don't think you would have taken this project on. I think you're doing a good job too. I think that because you ask questions.
I thank you for your kindness. Thank you for your questions.
Baby pigeons are wonderful creatures. They are charming and quite endearing. I'm glad you've had the opportunity to really get to know one.
If anything doesn't seem right, with the baby, keep the questions coming.
You've probably noticed that we don't all have exactly the same approach but that's ok. Ultimately, we all want to help.
Blessings to you and all of us too.