17 day old baby feral dove

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by nikku-chan

Hey Phil,

Although that news is good, about her not flying to people, it also makes me really sad.

Hi Nikku,



Oh no, you need not feel sad about that, be happy you will gave got to be her 'Aunt-Surrogate Momma', and, that her independance is right, normal and natural...though it include her cleving or defering to her own Species, among whom, and 'attuned' to whom, her survival will depend.

My time with her is going to be so short, but i must let her go, because it would be cruel to keep her for my own benefit.

Well, keeping her too long, once she IS in fact 'ready' to go, would not benifit her, anyway...at least not in terms if her release being well timed for her actual stage of being 'ready' occuring around the 45 - 50 day mark far as we are concerned, WITH as MUCH indoor Flying as possible prior.

I do, however, want to make a nesting box/board/flying area for her to come and go from as she pleases.

Maybe she will bring her mate back, and they will have babies.

That is not likely...even if it is remotely possible...


If she is a 'she', it will be her mate who shows her his prospective Nesting sites, and, their ancillary or continuous territories and amenities, or, shows her the choices he is in a position to provide, fight for, defend and so on.

These 'sites' will tend to be near or arouns actual amenities in their terms, and one will tend to find many other Pigeons close by doing the same things.


If your she is a 'he', then, the respective roles of the respective genders remain the same of course still...

If i keep her in this for 2 weeks, i've heard that when i release her she will come back at night for food etc.

Not necessarily, and for many reasons.

One reason, is that unless you prepare her to a feral flock as we have been discussing, her release will be 'to' no one and to nothing, and she will either have to try and stay close to you for food - and she likely would not - if you are saying you will 'release' her there where you live where there is no feral flock, or she will perish for want of her own kind to join and learn from and be one of.

Then I will know that she's getting food etc, and that she's safe. I'm aware that she might eventually leave to be with the flock, but that will be her choice and i'm okay with that completely. I just want to be sure that she will be alright at first.

No, not 'eventually', it needs to be what her "release" IS...her "release" needs TO be "to" a feral flock which she has been allowed to already get to know and be with many times...that flock.



You are not grasping the situation - she needs to be socialized to "wild" feral Pigeons by repeated and actual experience, a feral flock "now", before she can fly, since that is the only way you can do it...you as you, can not supervise her being led to a feral flock for her to graze and forage with after she is flying, like her biological parents would have, your only option is to do it now, before she can fly away from you.

And, she very possibly will NOT or would NOT do this on her own if released arbitrarily...even if she located a feral flock on her own, if she has not already spent time with them to learn the modes and get over her nerves, she will likely not be able to join them nor to manage the assertiveness she will need to eat with them when THEY fly to where food is known to be.

It is too risky anyway...

Do you know any good websites/photos/ideas/plans for making this type of thing for just a pair of birds?

See above...


You have no amenities to offer, you have a Cat and so on, she or he will have no reason to bring a mate for Nest Making in your home, nr would the mate agree to it, and, besides, it will be a year, two years even, before she or he is likely to even get a mate, once released. And if he or she did, where could theybe, in the Bathroom? or?

If you have a flock indoors, who daily fly and forrage, males among 'them' would bring prospective mates, and, the ates would see all the other Pigeons and so on and cool spots to make Nests, and that does work.

One Bird, hand raised, is a whole different matter.


This is the least of your concerns anyway.


If he or she DID come 'back' in a year or two or three, with-a-mate, just deal with that "then"..!

Lol...

You have enough to deal with now.

I'm going into the city today for grazing times, but if this is unsuccessful, there are a bunch of pigeons at my mums house that like to eat the weed seeds in her yard. They are smaller brown pigeons specifically (i think) an australian pigeon. Will it benefit her to see them, even though they're not the larger "city" pigeon variety?

It would be better than nothing, for sure...and, probably they would accept her to let her graze among them...


So, if you can do it with those Pigeons, or Doves ore likely, by all means do!


And, also, you will STILL need to do it WITH THE ACTUAL FERAL FLOCK SHE WILL BE RELEASED TO.


She needs two things in this regard -

To be socialized "to" her own Species of Pigeon kind, for her to learn the "modes" of awareness and attention and so on it takes TO "be" with them...and, then, to be released "TO" the exact very same "flock" of them, which she has been allowed to graze with for several times in a row, five or SIX times one may hope, prior to release, because then she is being released "to" a definite actual group of Pigeons she has already been with five or six times, in the same place, each time, whom she is accepted by and who she "knows".


This is important!!!!

Yesterday when i took her out, i noticed at a certain point that she was limping a bit, but thought maybe she just didn't like the pine needly ground. This morning though, she is still limping. She walks on her right foot as little as possible. She kind of waddles. I have noticed too, that she lifts it up in the air while standing sometimes (however, i noticed this a few days before too, not sure if it was her right foot or not, so it could just be normal?). I have examined her foot/leg THOROUGHLY, and cannot see anything wrong with it, apart from that the "pad" (the bit that connects all her toes..the very middle part of the foot) seemed a little morew puffy than the other, but touching it didn't cause any discomfort. I did notice that when she stands, her LEFT foot (the good one), has its toenails are slightly twisted and pointing kind of away from her, while on her bad foot, they seem to be straight on! This could just be because she is putting more pressure on her good foot, maybe? Another thing, when she's sitting, she sometimes lowers her wing, as though using it as a crutch for her foot, and leans to that side. But i do admit that i have seen her do it on the good side too..not as much though.

At that age, they sometimes strain a Leg a little and will favor a Leg for a few days, usually from a hard landing or small fall or twist...and, they do routinely 'lay' on their sides or on a Wing or on other casual poses of recline...

Anyway, do you know what it might be? do pigeons sprain their feet/legs sometimes? Should i keep her more confined than usual? Poor thing, i feel like such a bad mum. I guess she did it when she was running to me for safety on her "foray".

Her Leg will be fine tomorrow or in a couple days...and, you need to find a reliable flock of her kind of Pigeons, where you can feed them at the same place each time, to bring her to for her forays.


Sorry this is not easy to do in your area! I know that is a problem so far and you are trying!


Here, it is not that way...stable feral flocks graze every day in the same places now which they were twenty years ago or more.


They are there every day, at these various Parks, Parking Lots, and so on...easy to find, and reliably 'there'.



Best wishes!


Phil
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[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by nikku-chan

now i have noticed, she extends the sore leg out a bit more, while standing straighter on the good leg (keeping it more underneath her).

I just checked on her, let her walk around a bit on my arm, and now the limping is even worse...and she is holding her foot up more.

Also, her nose looks a bit like it is brown/pinkish marbled almost. It's usually brown. It kind of looks a bit burnt. Like when someone gets a massive tan, but then it starts peeling, and theres pink bits and browner bits. But it isn't peeling. It only looks the slightest tiniest bit like it is starting tocrack, maybe.

Should i skip taking her to forrage today with the ferals?

It's just..i don't have much time left before she starts flying...she's about 4 weeks old already.

You need to decide what you really intend or want here with this.


If you really do not want this Pigeon to ever go, okay.


If you want her to be fit for a real and well prepared 'release', so she is prepared and ready, please start over, and re-read what I have been explaining all along.


I do not think you realy grasp it, or grasp what the difference is for her.


If you want to do things for her sake, for the quality of her future, then, please, re-read all this carefully, from the beginning, and see if you can get a handle on it..!


Best wishes!

P.S. -

I don't care if she has to have both legs AND her Neck in a Cast, she needs to be with a feral flock to learn their modes and nuances and to be able to be "attuned" to them.

To do this she needs several occasions at least of being among them, to get over her initial 'nerves'.

The same flock, each time, and then it is "to" them that she would be released by you bringing her TO them in your hands and setting her on the ground same as all the prior times, only THIS time, she can fly now, and she flys a little right off, or not, but once they all fly off, she flys off WITH THEM then for the night, because she IS "with" them, and she roosts with them for the night in places THEY know are "safe", and come morning, or dawn, she flys with them to where-ever they go to drink or graze...



Phil
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[TAWhatley]

Nikku, you really do need to be "listening" to Phil here. I think he is probably the most experienced person on the Pigeon-Talk board when it comes to releasing a single pigeon into a feral flock. I do lots of releases but do them as mini-flocks joining the main flock .. that's a whole lot different than one bird going out on it's own.

JMO ..

Terry

[nikku-chan]

I do grasp what you are saying..It seems that you don't actually understand all that i am saying.

I DO have a cat, but she only lives INSIDE, therefore she could never be a problem to Pecky outside.
There IS a feral flock that LIVES in my backyard, in the date palm, as i have said before.

The only problem is, they seem to be more afraid than city pigeons would be, and therefore i cannot get close enough to let her peck amongst them.
They do walk around my yard, i just cannot get close enough.

I was not suggesting that i keep her, much less that i keep her inside in the bathroom like you seemed to think i wwas saying.

I was meaning, i would socialise her with the ferals in a park in the city until she starts flying.

I was suggesting that i then keep her outside in a large flight cage with a pigeon house and a board like a loft but with it locked, once she has started flying, so that she can get used to the pigeons who walk around my backyard, but keep her inside during most of the day to build flying strength, and then after a few weeks, at 45-50 days, opening the door of that cage when the pigeons are in my yard so that she can come back to something she knows if she needs to for food/whatever, but will join the flock living in my yard.

Pigeons in my city are hated, and kicked, and so on, and some of them are so thin. I REALLY don't want to release her right in the middle of the city. Maybe in your city, it is different.

So, my reasoning was, if she got used to the pigeons in my yard by being ouot there with them, as well as her previous interactions with other ferals, maybe she would be over her nerves and join my backyard flock.

I have LISTENED to every word you have said, i do grasp what you are saying. Sorry if i have seemed "daft" to you, but to you it may seem simple whether something would work or not, and to me it does not because i don't know pigeons like you. Hence why i have asked your advice.

I was just trying to go through every possible alternative for her because i REALLY DO NOT want to release her in the city centre. I have LISTENED, and i was trying to use your advice as well as other information, to concoct an alternative, to present to you, to see if it was a viable idea.

By the way, her leg seems worse and she's holding it up/hobbling alot more. I WILL take her out tomorrow, as you have said to do. The only reason i didn't today was because I was worried she'd hurt it worse by running to me. It wasnt because i'm trying to sabotage her chances of leaving, as you have implied. I'm not that selfish.

[TAWhatley]

Nikku,

You are in no way "daft" or anywhere close to it. I'm sorry if you felt we were treating you that way. In reading this last post of yours, it is obvious to me that you have thought this all out very well and only want to do what is best for the young pigeon, and bless you for that!

The leg seeming to be worse is troubling. Is there a way you could post us some current pictures of the leg and how the bird is standing?

Terry

[Pidgey]

The leg getting worse is a bad sign. We probably need to run him through a course of Baytril for two weeks.

Pidgey

[nikku-chan]

Oh no..i took her out to graze with the ferals, and found that she had done a poo with blood in it, and a cream coloured lumpy thing that looks like a tumor. it looks almost like it has blood vessels, it is quite big. She did a second poo, that had blood in it too. Also, when she was with the ferals she was shaking really badly, but i assume that was just nerves because she isn't anymore.

The last few days she has seemed a bit subdued compared to normal, but she is still testing her wings and walking around..but when she sleeps she fluffs up more than usual.

What should i do? vet? i'll post a pic in a sec.

[nikku-chan]

Someone please help me..
My baby from the thread, "17 day old baby feral dove", is sick.
I took her out for the first time to graze with other ferals, and she did a poo with blood in it, and a tumor-looking mass, that is quite hard, like tissue, and over a cm long. She has done anothe rpoo which also has blood, but no mass.

she also has had a sore leg for 2 days, which appears to be getting worse. She is about a month old now.

Are these related? should i take her to the emergency vet or wait until tomorrow? Does anyone know what is wrong?

[nikku-chan]

The lump is quite hard. Like a mass of tissue.

[TAWhatley]

The regular poops look good .. that yellow thing does NOT look good. If you have a vet that could look at/test the growth and the overall health of the bird, that would be wonderful.

Terry

[nikku-chan]

It isnt yellow so much..more creamy off-white..the camera makes it look more yellow.

Can i take her to the vet tomorrow, or should i take her to the emergency vet tonight?

If she stops pooing blood tonight..do you think maybe it was just the stress of being with other pigeons for the first time?

Should i preserve the growth in water or something and fridgerate it for the vet tomorrow?

poor little thing.

[nikku-chan]

She has done one more poo, and it, too, has blood in it. Not as red as the last blood poo. It is like a normal poo, with a few stringy blood parts. It has kind of brownish/blackish/reddish colourr. Do you think maybe there was a tumor inside her, which has detached and come out, (hence being accompaqnied by red blood), and now it's just the left over blood coming out (hence present brownish colour).

She still seems chirpy enough. she still flaps her wings and walks around..
She is still eating and drinking. I'm going to take her to the vet first thing tomorrow.

[pdpbison]

[quote=nikku-chan;255465]



Hi Nikku,


I am sorry, my last parting mention was meant to read as a sort of friendly thing, and I did not have any 'emoticons' for it.

Like, "I don't care if you have to walk over a bed of coals!!!" (BIG SMILEY FACE HERE) just as a way of trying to emphacise in a friendly way...it was not meant to be read as 'heavy'...just meant to try and let you know, that even if she has a small 'limp' to still do your best to find and or cultivate a reliable feral grazing flock to set her with.


Since you were proposing to not try and find any grazing contexts for her, because she seemed to have a limp....I did not want to see you lose another day because of it.


But it was meant to be friendly, so I am sorry, this is not the same medium as talking is!


Make sense?


Sorry you read it as something negative.


I do not think you are 'daft'.

It isnt yellow so much..more creamy off-white..the camera makes it look more yellow.

Can i take her to the vet tomorrow, or should i take her to the emergency vet tonight?

Well, either way...probably it would be good if someone with some Avian or at least 'small animal' medical experience could examine and evaluate her.

If she stops pooing blood tonight..do you think maybe it was just the stress of being with other pigeons for the first time?

How much 'blood' has there been?


And, what color was it?



This odd off-white blood-flecked thing has nothing to do with her having been nervous.


It is either a Tumur from her Digestive System, which was released and passed through her Intestines, or, is maybe a Cyst, or, is maybe some adhering mass of spent Leucocytes from an infection in her Intestines, or, is something odd she ate, or some odd material she had eaten over time, which accumulated in her Crop, or Stomach, and, is now expelled.

Should i preserve the growth in water or something and fridgerate it for the vet tomorrow?

poor little thing.

Yes, definitely, just gently wrap the object in thing plastic film like Sandwhich Wrap or something, so it is protected from drying out, and keep it refrigerated till you can bring it to the Vet for him to evaluate.

Do not put it in Water...just wrap it up in Sandwhich Wrap so it is snug.

It might just be some foreign matter which had been gathered in her Crop or Stomach, and, which now has passed on through...


It might be something from the Dog Bisket phase of her diet...some cuulative material the Biskets had contained.


No harm if you were to gently break it in half, to see what the inside is like...


If you want to, do that, ( still save it wrapped in the refrigerator, but do that ) and let us know what you see.


Best wishes!


Phil
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[nikku-chan]

Yeah, i'm sorry, the internet is a hard place to understand people sometimes.

I broke it open...it seems to just be whitish coloured inside..

no blood vessels or anything. kind of compacted. it is too hard to determine whether or not it is a tumor from the inside of it..it's just whitish..

Not much blood. maybe a rice grain for the poos w/blood in them, sometimes less.

She just did a few more poos last time i checked..one had a tiny bit of red blood in it. The others didn't have any.

She doesn't seem AS ravenous as she usually is for her food.

I HOPE it was from the dog food.
I guess it's good i'm taking her to the vet, because they can check her leg too.

By the way, the pigeons in the city came within 30 cm of me, so it was really easy to be with pecky with them around. She seemed really scared, shook uncontrollably, and didn't peck "with" them, but spent her time grooming next to them, like she didn't know how to act around them and was embarrassed, so tried to immerse herself in grooming so as not to look silly. It was cute. They seemed to be quite aware of her personal space, as though they knew i was her protection, and they didn't want to anger me. One of them pecked some seed a little too close to her, and seemed to penetrate her personal space, and Pecky tried to give it a warning peck. hehe.

There were some sea gulls too, and one of them seemed very interested in Pecky, like it wanted to bite her, but everytime it got "that" look, like it was about to, i scared it off.

So, if the vet puts her on baytril, will this affect her at all? Will she still be alright to visit the ferals tomorrow? (just checking)

Also, is there anything i should make sure of, that the vet does, in regards to checking her out? Should i ask them to test the tumor thing? Should i ask them to worm her? Should i ask them specifically to put her on baytril?


if they don't know what it is, should i still ask to put her on baytril, even if they say it isn't necessary?

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by nikku-chan

Yeah, i'm sorry, the internet is a hard place to understand people sometimes.

It was my fault, not yours.


And, I am more likely to accidently come across unfriendly, than most...too...but it is not so, just an accident of trying to be clear or direct or to keep something on track.


Lol...part of my charm, especially when writing on a tired brain.


Glad we are okay again...

I broke it open...it seems to just be whitish coloured inside..

Hmmmmm...and such blood as there was, was only on the 'outside' then..?

Not much blood. maybe a rice grain for the poos w/blood in them, sometimes less.

She just did a few more poos last time i checked..one had a tiny bit of red blood in it. The others didn't have any.

She doesn't seem AS ravenous as she usually is for her food.

I HOPE it was from the dog food.
I guess it's good i'm taking her to the vet, because they can check her leg too.

Sorry I do not have more experienve to guide an evaluation of what this mass or object is.


I can say I have seen some odd things get pooped 'out', which as far as I could tell, were aggregates or accumulations of foreign matter of some kind.


And this is a LARGE object or mass for someone of her size to have expelled.

A Vet who has a long experience with Birds or at least 'Small Animals' should have some ideas what it is, and any Vet would have some means to investigate the item itself, to determine it's composition, and import.

By the way, the pigeons in the city came within 30 cm of me, so it was really easy to be with pecky with them around.

Oh good!!!

She seemed really scared, shook uncontrollably, and didn't peck "with" them, but spent her time grooming next to them, like she didn't know how to act around them and was embarrassed, so tried to immerse herself in grooming so as not to look silly.

Yes, this is exactly what they do!


They are 'nervous', they will preen under their Wing or other, they shake, tremble, feel self conscious...and they do not know what ( else) to do.


This will be less so next time, and less the time after that, and will gradually be replaced with confidence and an active interest to be pecking with them.


It takes several sessions for them to get to where they need to be...five, six, seven sessions even...sometimes for them to get comfortable and confident.


This is the same 'ice' they would have to break if released to be on their own, meeting all this cold, at 45 days old or so, and, this is some of why such releases may tend to perish - the young flying released Pigeon, does not break-the-ice, hangs back, does not eat or get to eat, or what food there is is eaten by the others, and the 'nervous' one hangs back, and after a week or so, if not sooner, is in real trouble, and after ten days is definitely starving, weak or getting ill from a diminished immune system...or already perished.


No doubt some overcome the shyness or lack of confidence...but, when they get to acquire the necessary confidence and esperience ( and other things they get this way also, ) before flying, they will still have it later, they will be 'ready', when we do release them.

And that is the whole matter with this.

It was cute. They seemed to be quite aware of her personal space, as though they knew i was her protection, and they didn't want to anger me. One of them pecked some seed a little too close to her, and seemed to penetrate her personal space, and Pecky tried to give it a warning peck. hehe.

Very good...

There were some sea gulls too, and one of them seemed very interested in Pecky, like it wanted to bite her, but everytime it got "that" look, like it was about to, i scared it off.

So, if the vet puts her on baytril, will this affect her at all? Will she still be alright to visit the ferals tomorrow? (just checking)

If she is interested in pecking and eating, she may as well get to go and be with them.

If she is sick or getting sicker and is not feeling good, not interested to eat or peck, then of course let her stay home for the time being...since she would not be in a very good 'learning mode' for the forays to be benificial.

Also, is there anything i should make sure of, that the vet does, in regards to checking her out? Should i ask them to test the tumor thing? Should i ask them to worm her? Should i ask them specifically to put her on baytril?

I will have to let Pidgey regard any 'Baytril' questions.


I myself do not know that this mass is from her Body, or if it is an accumulation of foreign matter she passed.


The Vet should be asked to evaluate the composition of the mass or object, with a view that he determine if it is foreign matter, or, if it is a Cyst, Tumor, or wad of unusually accumulated Leucocytes, or as may be.


This would be easy for the Vet to do and would only take a few seconds with a visual then Microscopic investigation.

if they don't know what it is, should i still ask to put her on baytril, even if they say it isn't necessary?

The choice of a Medication, when possible, should be made on definite diagnosis, or, on a diagnosis which earnestly suspects an kind of infection or issue which that Medication is known to treat or remediate.


Baytril is a very good and versatile Drug, an Antibiotic, which addresses a wide range of infections.


If she does not have an infection, then the Baytril will not benifit her, and it may interfere with her Bone developement, so, if it is the best drug for an infection she does have, "yes", it should be used...but if not, then, we would all tend to agree, on 'not'.


But I would prefer that Pidgey regard this sidelight.


Let us know of course if there are more poops which are like that one...or anything else you see poop-wise or any which wise.

This mass might be some stuff from when her parents were trying to make-do with some iffy foods...that accumulated in her stomach, which took this long to wind on through.

It might be something else her body made...so, the Vet needs to evaluate it closely to determine what sort of thing it is.

It might be some old stale Chewing Gum or a dried scrap of Putty, she somehow ate before you got her.

...did it have any smell when you broke it in half?

Till next...

Good luck!


Best wishes!


Phil
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