Another baby in trouble--hydrating solution?

[Birdmom4ever]

I have another baby in trouble. It does not appear ill that I can see. It's an 11-day old chick that hatched the same day as its sibling, but fell behind in size and doesn't seem to be getting enough to eat. The same thing happened with the last set this pair raised and from what I can see, Mom just isn't that great a parent. Last time I was able to foster the smaller chick to another pair and things worked out. But I tried that this time and it didn't work out--timing was off, or something.

I brought the baby in the house and have it on a towel-wrapped heating pad. It has grain in its crop but it appears dehydrated. I can tell because one eye was stuck shut and the other had that dry look. I used an eye dropper to give it water, but I'm not sure how much or how often. I have hand-feeding formula, but assume I shouldn't feed it anything until its crop empties. If it's dehydrated, I'm guessing digestion has slowed or stopped. What else should I do? I'll try to get a hold of my rehabber friend this evening, but in the meantime, any help would be appreciated.

Also, could someone please post that rehydrating solution again? I swear I printed it out last time I saw it on this forum, but of course I can't find it now when I need it. I gave the chick the water I give everyone else, which has added probiotics, electrolytes and minerals. Is this good enough?

[Lin Hansen]

Hi,

This is a previous thread that talks about dehydration and gives the recipe for the rehydrating solution:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=7825)

Good luck with the baby,

Linda

[Birdmom4ever]

Thanks, Linda, that was very helpful. My rehabber friend is going to help me, too.

[Just_fledged]

Whose baby is it, Mama?

[Birdmom4ever]

An update on the baby: First off, I tried it back with the original foster parents (this isn't actually our baby) after I got it rehydrated because I'd prefer it be fed naturally by pigeons if at all possible. They fed it some this morning, but it was obvious by this afternoon that it wasn't getting enough because its sibling is so much larger that it can't adequately compete for food. I think it was also getting cold because though its sibling is getting feathers, the tiny one has just the beginning of pinfeathers and the parents have stopped brooding them during the day.

I tubed it this afternoon and evening and it's passing normal droppings, so I take that as a good sign. I have it on a towel wrapped heating pad on the low setting, with a towel over it. It's vigorous and alert.

A couple more questions, as I'm still new to tube-feeding. How much and how often for a 70 gram bird? I gave it about 5 ccs this evening and its crop wasn't quite full, but I was afraid of overfilling it. How often should I expect to feed a 12-day-old pigeon? I'll watch and see when its crop is empty, but some general guidelines would be useful.

Also, I'm treating baby for trich because a breeder friend told me that sometimes when they fail to thrive and get dehydrated it's because they have intestinal canker. I don't see any sign of canker, but if it has the intestinal form, I wouldn't be able to. We treat for it routinely in the loft, but of course can't eliminate it entirely.

I'm going to try the balloon-over-feeding-syringe method tomorrow. I didn't have any balloons available today, but got some tonight.

[Birdmom4ever]

I tried the balloon and syringe method today and though messy, it worked really well. The chick was able to eat until it was satisfied. I fed it approximately every three hours, or four times today. After three hours its crop wasn't entirely empty, but it seemed plenty hungry and ready to eat again. Is this often enough?

[John_D]

Glad to hear the feeding worked OK.

As the baby is now almost two weeks, it won't need so much feeding. Depending on how much it is taking (and it is hard to judge as it is a little messy), it could go to 3 feeds. Hopefully that will increase the likelihood of its crop emptying properly.

Do wipe his face with a damp cloth after feeding to avoid caked food if you don't already

John

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Birdmom,

In these types of situations where one youngster is thriving and the other is falling behind, you should try switching them. You said you prefer to have mom and dad feed their young so remove the stronger/bigger chick for a few hours a day and let mom and dad only concentrate/feed the weaker one. Once the competition is removed, the parents will feed the neglected chick nicely.


just a thought,


Brad

[cyro51]

Hi Birdmom,

Just a thought....

One reason for one chick out of two failing to thrive is that the one or both of the parents are paratyphoid carriers. You said that in this case they are being cared for by foster parents. Did the last pair of eggs that this particular pair fostered come from the same parents?

Cynthia

[Birdmom4ever]

Thanks so much for all your replies. I've been wiping the baby's face clean with a damp cloth each time to remove all traces of formula before it can dry. Last night it took a LOT, to the point its little crop was bulging. This morning it wasn't as hungry, as it still had quite a bit of food in its crop, so it looks as though it can go longer between feedings today. It's hard for me to tell how often the parents feed them. I thought it was just a few times a day at this age, but every time I go out there the babies' crops are full to bursting.

Cynthia, the situation is somewhat complicated. The baby is a Vienna medium-faced (a very tiny breed, as adults they only weigh 4-8 oz.) I'm fostering for someone who raises them. So is its sibling. My pigeons have all been fully vaccinated for paratyphoid and PMV. This particular pair are 2003 birds I raised myself and I'd be surprised if they were carriers. We've had no evidence of paratyphoid since I treated the flock with Baytril and began vaccinating for it in the spring of 2003, before the parents were hatched. (Prior to that I think we did have it, because we lost a bunch of babies with paratyphoid symptoms.)

I can't say for certain that their natural parents didn't have it, but I doubt it because I'm sure their owner vaccinates his pigeons.

The last time this happened and I was able to foster the smaller baby out to a different pair, it developed normally. It displayed no sign of illness and grew up to be a healthy, though small, cock bird. I've noticed that some of my pigeons do better with these small-breed babies than others. Unfortunately, this time all my best parents weren't available to foster, as the timing was wrong.

Brad, I considered taking the larger chick out periodically during the day and putting the little one back, but there is the issue of cold. The parents have stopped brooding the chicks during the day at this point. That's fine for the normally developed ones because they have feathers, but this tiny one isn't feathered out yet and I'm afraid it would get too cold alone in the nest.

Thanks again for all your help. You guys are awesome.

[Birdmom4ever]

Hi guys,

I wanted to give you another update and ask a few more questions. The baby has gained 10 grams since I started feeding him on Thursday afternoon. I was finally able to band him today, which seems an important milestone as he was previously too small to band. (His nest mate was banded at the age of 7 days.) His feathers are slowly coming in.

I think I inadvertently overfed him the other day, but he seems to have recovered. One concern I have is that, although I'm not allowing him to eat until he is stuffed like a water balloon, it's a long time before his crop is mostly empty. I only fed him twice today because at midday his crop still had a quite a bit in it, though he'd pooped twice. Is this normal or is his crop slow? Droppings appear normal and he appears well hydrated at this point. I'm mixing the formula according to package directions, which is about 1 part formula to 2 parts water for chicks over the age of 7 days. I'm feeding him until his crop looks nice and round but still feels a little squishy. Sorry for all the questions, but I'm such a nervous mom!

[TAWhatley]

Hi BirdMom,

You've got good instincts! The crop being slow to empty is important to have noticed and address. It may be a problem or may just be that this youngster is not quite ready for the size of feeding you are giving or the thickness of the formula. I'd water down the formula and lessen the amount per feeding. When the crop is empty or nearly so then feed again and gradually up the formula to water ratio as the little one improves its ability to digest the food. Be very sure the baby is quite warm as being cold can hamper the ability to digest the food .. too much energy being spent trying to keep warm and none on eating and growing.

If the crop remains slow even with thinner formula and more warmth, then tis time to consider slow crop and treat for that.

Terry

[Birdmom4ever]

Thanks, Terry. I'm keeping the chick on a towel-wrapped heating pad for now because I had the same thought, that cold would inhibit digestion. Have also been limiting the amount. At first I fed him as much as he wanted, but like I said, he did overeat on at least one occasion.

How do you treat slow crop? Also, is his weight gain ok? He is growing and he gained 4 grams between yesterday and today (but a total of just 10 grams between Thursday and today, Monday). I've been weighing him at the same time each day, right before his evening feeding, to try and get an accurate measurement of his gain over a 24-hour period. It's difficult for me to tell just how much he is actually consuming because we're using the balloon-and-syringe method and a lot of formula spills out while he's eating. However, I like it a lot better than tubing because it seems a lot more comfortable for him.

[TAWhatley]

Originally Posted by Birdmom4ever

How do you treat slow crop? Also, is his weight gain ok?

Hi Birdmom,

True slow crop (yeast infection) would be treated with Nystatin which would have to be gotten from a vet. The "home grown" remedies are flushing with soda water and then nothing but water for two days and then back on food. I don't recommend either at this point.

Just do what you are doing for a couple of days, and let's see where we're at.
The weight gain is OK .. let's see what happens in the next day or two.

Terry

[Birdmom4ever]

Okay, we'll see how things go tomorrow. I can't believe how anxious I am over this little guy! It seems ridiculous given that we have over 60 pigeons. But I see that tiny, helpless little bird and I'm filled with a mix of tenderness and worry. Again, thanks for all your help.