Help seriously needed

[pdpbison]

A simple, casual Necropsy would be able to show whether the Crop and passage to the Stomach is clogged with Mold , old and other Fungi, and swollen with inflamation...


The Birds were 'throwing up' Seeds and green 'mold' like material.


This sort of thing can get started and have no obvious signs, untill the Birds are dieing...unless one were really observing them to see non-passing Crops.


'Gushing' is typical, since when Liquids are not passing, the Bird gets thirsty and over-drinks, filling their Crop too full...the liquid is nasty, they aspirate inadvertantly, and, if they do not die of the condition as it is, they die of aspiration issues resultant of the condition...


Canker, of course can sometimes clog a Crop...but we would not expect it to be doing so on so many Birds at once...where, Mold, Yeast, Mildew or Candida, can...and, this would co-respond well enough to the situation's lead-ins, of possibly wet or damp Seed, cold, stress, flooding, and whatever else as went with it.


If these Birds were a little run down to begin with, and ate Seeds having some virulent strain of Mold or Fungi ( which a damp or wet Seed can have for itself in half-a-day of being wet, ) then...


Phil
l v

[Margarret]

Becky,

I don't have anything to add as the others have already given you good advice. I am so sorry you are going through this. Loosing a bird is hard enough, but loosing several as you are and not knowing what to do for them is heartbreaking.

I hope the ones left will be OK and that you can pull any others with symptoms through this. Were your birds in individual cages or an open loft when this began?

Hugs to you and healing thoughts for your birds and you.

Margaret

[Birdmom4ever]

I don't have anything to add either, but my heart goes out to you. I'm so very sorry this is happening to your pigeons! It's a nightmare, the kind of thing we all dread. I can tell you take good care of your birds. I'm praying you'll get to the bottom of this and won't lose any more birds.

-Cathy

[MaryOfExeter]

Well a nice little update is, none of the healthy looking birds have turned for the worst, and the sick ones I have isolated are still hanging in there for the time being. We'll just have to see how they are tomorrow and if they're responding to treatment.

[pdpbison]

Hi MofE,


What is the 'Treatment' they are getting, to see how they respond to it?



Phil
l v

[MaryOfExeter]

Margarret,
Thank you for the nice thoughts
The birds were in an open loft, so I'm not sure if one bird spread it, or if they all got it at the same time/from the same thing. I think it's fairly obvious either some birds just got it worse, or some birds are just stronger than the others. My dad really honestly thinks this is fungal, but then there's the possibility of it being viral. Found out the local avian vet was closed early today, but we did call a few people to ask their opinions and none of them knew what to say other than keep the sick birds away and hope for the best, since their best guess was it was a virus and we couldn't really stop it. And to treat for canker, like you guys said, cause it's one of those common secondary diseases.

Phil,
I tried giving the birds the Fishzole like suggested earlier. Managed to get it down the birds without them gushing water everywhere. A few of the more healthy ones I tried just not doing anything different than the terramycin I had been giving them. I'm afraid I'll just end up making the healthier ones more sick by giving them too much medicine and stress their systems. Didn't see any canker in those, and they too are isolated, so I just let them be. The only ones that were gushing were the ones that appeared to have a speck or two of canker in the mouth/throat, so in that case it could be a good possibility that that's what's causing the crop to do that?
There's so much stuff that it could be, and so much I could give them. It's confusing on just what to go with

[Charis]

Originally Posted by MaryOfExeter

Margarret,
Thank you for the nice thoughts
The birds were in an open loft, so I'm not sure if one bird spread it, or if they all got it at the same time/from the same thing. I think it's fairly obvious either some birds just got it worse, or some birds are just stronger than the others. My dad really honestly thinks this is fungal, but then there's the possibility of it being viral. Found out the local avian vet was closed early today, but we did call a few people to ask their opinions and none of them knew what to say other than keep the sick birds away and hope for the best, since their best guess was it was a virus and we couldn't really stop it. And to treat for canker, like you guys said, cause it's one of those common secondary diseases.

Phil,
I tried giving the birds the Fishzole like suggested earlier. Managed to get it down the birds without them gushing water everywhere. A few of the more healthy ones I tried just not doing anything different than the terramycin I had been giving them. I'm afraid I'll just end up making the healthier ones more sick by giving them too much medicine and stress their systems. Didn't see any canker in those, and they too are isolated, so I just let them be. The only ones that were gushing were the ones that appeared to have a speck or two of canker in the mouth/throat, so in that case it could be a good possibility that that's what's causing the crop to do that?
There's so much stuff that it could be, and so much I could give them. It's confusing on just what to go with

Becky...I suspect it's more than just one thing going on with your birds. Canker can be INTERNAL too, which means you wouldn't SEE it in the throat. STRESS can bring on an OUTBREAK of canker and with the FLOODING, that would be STRESSFUL. That's why many of us treat for canker on a regular basis, to keep it at bay and avoid an outbreak. It's important to rotate the canker drug to avoid your birds building a resistance to any one medicine.

[sasha008]

You said there's been storms and flooding, that the aviary is on grass, and that the birds had been eating a lot of grass. Is it possible the grass was treated with any chemical or fertilizer? If not, any chance a chemical could have been spread from another area by flooding? Any pest spraying done in your area? Where does the water they drink come from? Could that be contaminated?

I hope you figure this out soon. I can't imagine how heartbreaking this must be for you

[pdpbison]

Hi MofE,




Oh my, I'd sort of glossed over the 'eating Grass' part.


Are you sure they actually were eating Grass?


That in itself could kill them...it could sodden and clog their Crop, start fermenting in there, and be very bad indeed...


Fresh 'Greens' are sometimes craved by Pigeons, but, the Greens have to be those sorts we would eat...which they can pass, and manage...but even then, possibly, if not tiny Bites, even those could lead to problems.


Grass is not digestible to Birds or People...Ungulates who do digest it, have three Stomachs in which to ferment it via symbiotes, special enzymes, ample, and successive 'chewing', ( 'Chewing their Cud' and so on, which is re-chewing already swallowed, semi-frerments, Grass, ) they have internal Yeasts and so on...



Ohhhhhhhhhhhh...yeeeeeeeeeeeesh...if they were eating Grass, it would be very bad for them...



Anyway, "ACV" if nothing else is handy...and or, I believe what you need here, in part, definitely, are anti-fungals, "Nystatin" or "Medistatin" and the 'poor mans' sort of 'made do', if one does not have those, can be "ACV-Water"...

Mix four Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to a Gallon of good Water...haver this be their water for now, have in glass or plastic or stainless steel containers, no 'Galvanized' or 'Zink' containers...


The things in the Throats you saw, might be Candida or Yellow or Orange or off-white Fungus and not Canker...even though as a fungal infection weakens them, Canker can start up in addition.


Get to that Vet tomorrow, bring a deceased one with for a fast, casual Necropsy, tell him that a Fungal infection of the Crop is 'suspected' and tell him everything else, in two seconds, he can say "Eye, or Nay" and you go from there...tell him about the 'grass' of course...though it might be present clogging the Crop of the deceased one being necropsy'd...anyway...


Good luck..!


Phil
l v

[MaryOfExeter]

Yes I know canker can be internal. I can't say that there isn't a bird in there with internal canker, but I do know the bird my dad looked at didn't as far as he could find. Crop was clear, but we did see that bird had eaten a lot of greens.
One of the very first thoughts that came to mind when I saw my birds like this, was that something or someone (long story short, there are some trouble makers around here ) had poisoned them. The flood could very well have washed some type of chemical, sickness, or something, into the aviary. The water I provide for them is fresh and clean everyday, as well as the food. The grass they were eating when I said that, was in a different spot and on a hill, so maybe not as much, if anything at all, had accumulated on it. We personally haven't put any chemicals in the yard. They weren't really eating like...grass blades or leaves or anything, but the seeds the plants make. So I guess 'wild seeds' would have sounded a bit better than saying 'grass'.
When I get home I'll do the 4 tablespoons of vinegar per gallon, and give everyone a canker pill. I'm also in the process of hounding my dad about taking some birds to the vet today

[Charis]

METRONIDAZOLE (Flagyl, Torgyl, Stormogyl)

Dose 20-50 mgs per kilo BID or 40-100mgs per kilo OID (Once daily)- 14 days.

In very rare cases, liver damage can be caused by prolonged use over 14 days - but it is very rare and one must balance the risks.
If maintained for 14 days or more it is highly effective against a severe infection of trichomonas gallinae and in preventing an inside recurrence- (not reinfection from an outside source, ie another bird).
Used for anaerobic, (flushing deep wounds), and protozoal infections. Can be given concurrently with Amoxy and Trim Sulphas.

[myrpalom]

The symptoms described by Becky in her first post look like "Adenovirus of type II" (perfectly healthy birds die within a few hours, vomiting, yellow diarrhea). We call it "sudden death " in Belgium. It is viral, no treatment, only supportive care. Happened to me in 2005, 10% of my rescued birds died. Nothing I could do. It was a nightmare. I really hope this is not what is happening in your loft, it is incredibly sad to watch your pigeons die one by one without being able to stop it.
Here is an article on it in Dutch, you can use Altavista Babelfish for automatic translation:
http://www.pipa.be/artikels/ADINOVIROSEnl.htm

Myriam

[MaryOfExeter]

Thanks Charis for the fishzole information. Just got done giving everyone their pills and ACV. The three sick birds I mentioned being in isolation that had started gushing yesterday, didn't make it. I can pretty much say for sure that they don't start doing that until they're too bad off. The healthy ones I didn't even see throwing up today.
Adeno virus II sounds like it, yes. Only one so far showed signs of yellowish droppings though, and some don't even look to have diarrhea period. But of course those are the healthier ones that...look healthy. I hope they stay that way and make it through this.

[Charis]

Becky, It is the nature of birds to not act sick even when they are. A bird that acts sick, in the wild, is much more vulnerable to predators and so as a defense, they act well for as long as they can. When you notice a sick bird, that bird is really sick and time is of the essence.

[jenfer]

Would a viral outbreak be associated with crop stasis? Seems to me that a bacterial or fungal infection would be more likely.

Jennifer