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#31
4th September 2008, 06:01 PM
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Well...you and me both... But, oh well... Who knows what various Virus can do...and also, they will effect different age Pigeons differently, and effect Pigeons in differing Healthor condition, differently...anyway. Personally, I'd think Adenovirus or other Virus to not be the issue here... And rather, I suspect a fungal or candida like condition, however they got it, occasioning Crop Stasis, partial stasis or complete, ending up with Birds over drinking from thirst since nothing was passing...then, 'gushing', as they will, under such Circumstances. Two seconds with a Pair of Scissors in a cursory Necropsy, and you could say if the deceased had a clear Crop and passage, or not, and if not, what it looked like...any Vet ought to be able to say then if he sees a Fungal or Candida lie condition...but, that has not been done. Viruses can shut down their digestive system, but, it tends also to shut down any interest in eating prior to that, so that the Vuirus effected Pigeons would not tend to have other than empty Crops, where, it is then the tube-feeds which do not pass...Medistatin and all...nothing passes... This is not what we find described here though... Phil l v 
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#33
4th September 2008, 06:53 PM
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this link might be helpful for your situation
http://www.racingpigeondigest.com/cu...tured_article/
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#34
4th September 2008, 07:11 PM
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Great article. I especially liked this part....
"What to do if Your Birds have 'Young Bird Disease' i.e. Circo virus infection? The first thing to do is accurately establish the diagnosis. This means contacting the vet. If you have several young birds become sick, don't assume a diagnosis. The problem may be Circo virus or it may be one of the other problems mentioned earlier. Don't rely on the old guy down at the club or your neighbour who also races pigeons. They don't have the diagnostic testing available and this simply wastes time. Similarly don't go to the local dog and cat vet. If he doesn't do a lot of bird work, he can't be expected to know and it is therefore unfair to be critical of him. Go to a qualified avian vet or a vet with a lot of bird experience. It's worth mentioning here that avian vets might be rare in your locality, but you don't have to be near one. Phone to have a test kit mailed out to you or organize to send a live bird to them via courier. 50% of the thousands of fanciers who use my clinic as their veterinary provider live more that 50 miles from the clinic." I realize that this article was primarily written for Australian pigeon keepers and it would be great if we could have testing kits mailed to us too.
__________________
Charis If all the beasts were gone, men would die from great loneliness of spirit, for whatever happens to the beasts also happens to the man. Seattle 1736-1866  Another Life, Gone To The Birds!
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#35
4th September 2008, 09:04 PM
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Well...no, it is not... Crop Stasis can and does occur with a perfectly well functioning intact GI tract...even it also can and does occur with a non-functioning shut-down GU tract. It all depends on what the illness, infection or underlieing condition/reason is, does it not? A Crop obturated by a foreign object, initially anyway, partial or fairly complete Stasis will only be beginning to acquire subsequent infections or fungal related problems, with a still intact and perfectly fine GI tract...unhampered by anything. A Crop obturated by Candida or other inflaming or infected conditions, inflaitory debris, along with whatever objects secondarily, Seeds, or whatever, the GI tract might well be lagging behind till it does catch up with it's own degree of trickle-down infection, if it gets any at all...till then, it might be functioning just fine, or good enough, IF it had anything to do besides excrete Bile...or, finish up whatever it does have of prior foods. Quote:
Well, sure...and...? I do not see how this per-se applies here, to this, or to any of the conjectural describes of what is going on. As usual, or as often, we know almost nothing of what is going on, other than a few tid bits, suggesting Crop Stasis, and, Pigeons surmised ( by me anyway ) to be over-drinking, whatever else or whatever food is also in their Crops, since nothing is getting through hydration wise, and, they are "thirsty" or were thirsty...and, for over-drinking, with a static Crop condition, they 'gush' and kill themselves via aspirated fluids...possibly quite nasty, mouldy, toxic fluids, at that. As for 'why' any of this got going, who knows? But once it is got going, there is a practical 'check list' of things to look for, and things to look out for, and one of those things, is to see if in fact one can determine, by 'swab' or 'Necropsy', or off the cuff impiricals, what general sort of Organisms appear to be over-abundant in the Crop, debris, foreign objects or aggregates of goo and Sees making a 'plug', as well as palpating, or whatever else, in order to elect a course of action or regimen, to address at least "that" issue prospectively...since, regardless of whatever else is suspected or actually going on, these over-full fluid filled Crops are in temselves, enough TO "Kill" them...even if everything else was "Okay", and, it might be everything else is Okay, for all we know. This does not mean, nor is there any indications I recall reading in this thread, that any of these Birds had shut-down GI Tracts...some were pooping, others not, or others, who knows...but, they can get Crop Stasis while still digesting or processing the past atenuated remnants of earlier foods, and still be pooping WITH an obturated or static Crop, so... That's my sense of things here with this... Love, Phil l v
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#36
4th September 2008, 09:15 PM
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I was probably being a little literal on the term "stasis". Yes, an obstruction isn't the same thing, but that's not really stasis, either. Stasis, as I'm applying it, is the total cessation of peristalsis. I'm going on MaryOfExeter's indication of the pathological acuteness for the birds that died. Most things, even bad ones like horrible canker, don't move anywhere near that fast. That's the work of a lethal virus (to susceptible individuals), bacteria or toxin (which may be produced by a bacteria).
Pidgey
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#37
5th September 2008, 06:49 AM
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I have observed in dying birds that the organs do shut down in a certain order, but I have never witnessed the digestive system shutting down to the point of the bird gushing fluids? Have others observed this? Jennifer
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#38
5th September 2008, 08:43 AM
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Jennifer, Makes total sense to me. The birds most likely drank some contaminated water from the flooding. The pathogen could be anything. Or it could be one of the poisons from agricultural runoff. Margaret
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#39
5th September 2008, 08:50 AM
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On the gushing fluids part, I'd just thought that the bird had tried to drink (they will often attempt to purge disease from themselves like that) but that it just didn't go through due to absolute stasis. As morbidity progresses towards death, they just don't have the strength to keep the upper esophagus closed anymore and any pressure applied in picking them up, or even their own flight response (obviously severely degraded at this point) causes them to just upchuck the stuff.
Pidgey
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#40
5th September 2008, 09:27 AM
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Becky, first off, I'm terribly sorry this is happening. Been through it myself though not in these numbers. To me, it sounds like it is bacterial or fungal.
The NC Vet School closed its avian operation a few years ago. Now, that is not to say they still don't have some fine vets who are knowledgeable about avian diseases so it is worth a shot to call them. However, if I could suggest one person, that would be Dr. Tahseen Aziz, Pathologist, of Rollins Diagnostic Lab in Raleigh. This man is an avian pathologist and the one who helped us two years ago when we lost two pigeons to a protozoal outbreak caused, we believe, by roaches. He is of Indian heritage and very knowledgeable. If he needs a second opinion, he will contact the vets at NC State. I have not talked to him except when we have taken a pigeon for necropsy but, hopefully, he may talk with you. His phone number is: 919-733-3986. This lab is a state agency and the place where all diagnostic studies of carcasses is done. He is one of the nicest people I've ever met. This is their web site: http://www.ncvdl.com/ There is also a certified avian vet at the Piedmont Wildlife Center in Durham. I believe her name is Dr. Diane Deresienski who is extremely well thought of in this area. She had been with the Vet School for a number of years. This is their web site: http://www.piedmontwildlifecenter.org/organization She may be able to help you also. And last is a long shot, but there is a lady in the Charlotte area named Lessie Davis who probably knows about as much about saving birds as a vet. She is a licensed rehabber and I would trust anything she told me. I have never met this lady but have a number of her articles and writings about birds. You may be able to get her number from the Carolina Raptor Center in Charlotte. I'll try to get that link - kept getting a message that server failed. Personally, I would try to find some Baytril and dose everyone. Anyhow, keep your chin up and most of all, don't ever be concerned to post something like this. You know we care for you and also know how much this is hurting you and your Dad.
__________________
Maggie 
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#41
5th September 2008, 09:32 AM
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Becky, the Carolina Raptor Center site keeps throwing up a timeout failure. I expect you can get their number fairly easily. Ms. Davis was associated with them at one time.
Becky, I "googled" Lessie Davis' name and found this site. http://www.athomecharlotte.com/max/maxs_list.htm She is listed near the bottom of the page. Phone number in Wingate is 704-233-4111.
__________________
Maggie
Last edited by Lady Tarheel; 5th September 2008 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Add information
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#42
5th September 2008, 03:59 PM
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Hi Jennifer, Pidgey, MofE, all.... I have had Pigeons who I was afraid were going to 'gush', and, long story short, dealing with their Crop issue, day "two" they were pooping, preening, digesting and standing on one leg for naps. A non-passing Crop is not an indicator of the GI tract's condition, even if an association can be drawn in those instances where it is. What I would have done with these Pigeons in question is - Investigate the Crops by careful palpation, unless it is a probable 'gusher', to see if I can feel solids, or just liquids. Done a casual Necropsy of one or more of the deceased, to literally 'see' the inside of their Crop...and see what was in it, also. Look at the poops, of those who are pooping...look at the urates, especially of those whose Crops are over-full of Liquids. Make a decision, which, possibly, probably, would be to with-hold Food and Water, adminster 'Medistatin' and 'Metronidazole', and maybe an antibiotic also, and, see what happens. Those who are overfull of Liquid, if I thought I could get away with it, or who show Crop stasis regardless of Liquid level, I would suction out the Liquid, flush with Saline, suction that out, flush again, suction again, and THEN adminster 'Medistatin'...and or Medistatin and other Meds with a little ACV-Water. My suspicion here, has been that the Crop issue is the actual primary problem, and is fungal or yeast-Candida related... This of course can lead to serious or fatal GI issues, ( if in fact it has not follwed them, or kept even pace with them, ) but, also, there can be a time lag for that, and, at the phase of things when first seen, probably/possibly, the time lag would have been favorable. While this seemed to be a 'sudden onset', more likely, the only things sudden, was noticing the point at which things were conspicuous. When I get these overfull liquid Crops among the ferals, all I know, is a Pigeon shows up that way and does not fly off again or does not fly well...and or looks uncomfortable or ill or both...and I have no idea about the graduaded sequence of appearance which preceded it, and, probably, there was not much to notice anyway. So, this sort of thing can appear to be 'sudden', when it has been days or a week or more developing... If they drank 'flood water' there is no end to possible bad things that Water may have contained. But, if Crops are not passing, and the Bird over-drinks because he is thirsty and the Crop is not passing the Liquids already in it, he puts himself in peril by being over-full of Liquids. Why is the Crop not passing? Well, could be any of many different things, as we know... But, usually, if nothing else, impirically, prospectively, 'Medistatin' or 'ACV' if nothing else is to be had, will alleviate the problem...and if it does not, you see the next day how things are going, so, you know then, it is not an issue which 'Medistatin' is helping, so probably it is inflamitory debris, a foreign object, or a mechanical obturation of thick goo or sludge and Seeds sticking together, or whatever...if not an infection in the Crop, as well. BUT, at least giving 'Medistatin' or 'ACV" will take care of things which even if NOT the cause, can still be creating lethal or bad conditions, regardless, so, any static Crop is best given anti-fungals, anti-candida, anti-yeast meds ('Medistatin', 'Nystatin', or, if these are not available, then "ACV" ) , since Candida or Yeast or Fungal issues WILL be occuring almost any time a Crop, for whatever reason, is not passing. Phil l v Last edited by pdpbison; 5th September 2008 at 04:16 PM.
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#43
5th September 2008, 04:08 PM
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Hi Pidgey, Yes...this makes sense to me. If having a non-passing Crop, ven say because of contusion ( this can and does happen also ) they feel thirsty...they KEEP drinking because thy fel thirsty, and soon, they are standing like a 'Penguin' and in danger of 'gushing'. They can gush from being excited or nervous, releasing the 'closed' esophagus... I had on a couple months ago, who, as far as I could tell, he'd ran into somehting flying, and bruised the lowr area of his Crop...well, however it is this can be, his Crop was not passing and he was FULL of Water, so much so, his Crop was sagging low and out, like a Capital letter "D" if it had a 'gut' hanging over it's base line. Anyway...I just provided suportive, non-invasive care, and, in a few days, he'd got his Crop emptied and all went well from there... There was no disease, no candida, no nothing, other than contusion...and a very stretched out Crop. Crop took a while to regain it's former elasticity, too...eight days maybe? Ten? he'd really stretched it out a great deal with all that Water, and or, who knows, maybe he'd been fairly full of Water when he flew into something, too...but drank more once grounded... Love, Phil l v
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#44
11th September 2008, 07:43 PM
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Good news guys, no more birds have gotten sick in the past few days. Had one go because she was just too light weight and couldn't take it. None of birds left have been vomiting lately that I can tell. No puffing up, no standing motionless, no sleepy eyes. Everyone looks great
 I guess the canker meds and ACV worked out after all. Keeping them on a feeding schedule. Haven't measured the exact amount of food they're getting per bird, but they're able to clean up all but a few of the smaller seeds by the time they're done, and they're fed twice a day. Of course they're hungry and ready to eat again by the time I get home, but I think not having food available all the time helps them keep what they do eat, down. At first most of them were light so I kept food in there. Wanted them to get some weight on before they blow away. I noticed when they had food all the time though, they'd eat too much and vomit, but now they don't. I think whatever it was that was making them sick, has been passed now (or so I hope!). I'm happy this is finally over with And I've still got survivors. Woo  Thank you guys for all your help. Couldn't have done it without you I probably would have gone crazy by now.
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