Inflamed Eye Cere & Eyelid; need advice

[rfboyer]

Here's Velvet; I'm holding him... his eye is rather inflamed and I need some advice.

I first noticed this about a week and a half ago, and he was just keeping his eye half-shut once in a while. He's been on dummy eggs, and I hadn't really had a good look at this side of him until last weekend, when I noticed his eye had gotten swollen and a little crusty in places (not like a pox, I don't think). Next few days I applied ophthalmic erythromycin ointment to his eye, and it seemed to improve little by little, until today, when it was the most swollen it had been, though it's not crusty.

So, now I guess he will be needing more than just topical treatment. I'd hugely appreciate suggestions on what to give him; I've got an arsenal of meds but don't want to overmedicate him with stuff he doesn't need.

Velvet eats & drinks well, doesn't seem "light," mouth and throat look clear & normal pink. Otherwise, good posture and normal cockbird behavior (courting, bringing twigs, sitting the eggs, etc) though he generally doesn't fight and none of the others hassles him, that I'm aware of. He's one of my "senior" birds, 10 years old, generally tame and used to being handled. I was surprised when he didn't protest when I caught him to put the ointment on his eye, though he was not easy to catch. He does seem able to see with that eye, but the swelling limits his peripheral vision.

This evening's poop:

Urates look more yellow in photo than real life, despite correcting white balance...

Thanks in advance for advice!

[Dobato]

Robin, looks like a one-eye cold. Remind me what you have on hand in terms of antibiotics.

Thanks,

Karyn

[pdpbison]

Hi Robin,



The Erythromycin Opthalimc Ointment should have done the trick for the usual infected eye things we see, so if it has not, maybe do some 'googles' and see what kinds of Bacteria the ingredients would not cover, and, consider to consult a Vet or MD on what would be used in that eventuality for an infected Eye.


Poop wise, the 'flat, paint-like' Urates, even if not 'yellow' to any marked degree, in my experience, usually are showing an early stage of Canker somewhere in the PIgeon's system, even if one sees a clear Mouth snd Throat.


If you have a friendly Vet, maybe a culture could be made from a swab of the Eye, and a determination made then as for what class or sort of Bacteria or other Organism is responsible.


If it is a Virus in the Eye then possibly trying to provide comfort is about all that can be done till it runs it's course.



Phil
Las Vegas

[rfboyer]

Thanks, Karyn & Phil...

Meds I have on hand:
Sulmet 12.5% liquid
Sulfatrim oral suspension - 200mg sulfamethoxazole & 40 mg trimethoprim per 5ml (Lou's handwritten note says 2.5 tbsp per gallon of water for loose droppings)
Coxi Plus - sulfadimethoxine sodium 25% (water soluble powder, dose 1 scoop (provided) per 2 litres according to label)
Viceton - chloramphenicol 250mg tabs (label instructions are for dogs... )
Lugol solution
Divet tablets
Meditrich coated tabs - 100mg metronidazole
Metronidazolum - 60mg
Medistatin powder
Ronidazole powder (mixes into drinking water)

ETA: some of the less usual stuff I found at Lou's loft and have no idea how to use it

Should I pop him one of the 'zole tabs against the probable "early canker?"

If this is virus, since it seems to have only temporarily responded to the erithromycin ointment, is there anything I can do for Velvet's eye to relieve discomfort?

Now that I'm thinking more about it, I recall that Velvet collided with the bill of my hat a few weeks ago (he flew out of his nest box as I stood up from bending over to tidy one of the ones below his) but he didn't seem injured at the time (surprised but didn't crash-land). There was at least a week in between that and when the eyelid began to look a bit 'off' so I'm not sure there'd be any connection...

[pdpbison]

Hi Robin,



May as well do a week of Metronidazole...and see if doing so brings the Urates back into a normal 'paste' mode.


What is the strength or dosage of the Pills/Tablets you have?



The Antibiotic Eye Ointment should have a soothing effect.


Possibly he did scratch or injure his Eye, which then led to an infection or infections opportuning.


When you have been applying the Ointment so far, are you laying a tiny 'squig' at the top of the upper Lid, so it can then melt, and, distribute itself down into the entire Eye?


Phil
L v

[Dobato]

Robin, you may need to balance you medicine cabinet a little better, lots of sulfa based drugs, but it would be nice to have Baytril and a drug from the tetracycline family as well, if you could keep some Doxycycline on hand, this would be good. I think I am see some nasal discharge, and is he sneezing and does he have any new resistance to flight, where he does not really want to fly?

Karyn

[rfboyer]

Originally Posted by pdpbison

May as well do a week of Metronidazole...and see if doing so brings the Urates back into a normal 'paste' mode.
What is the strength or dosage of the Pills/Tablets you have?

I have 2 strengths:
100mg that are coated pills (supposed to be better tolerated when digestion is in disorder)
60mg - package claims "1 pill, 1 day" (which is probably "underkill," right?)

If I keep him in the house for the week I give this, is there anything special I should do to reacclimate him to being in a relatively cold loft when he's better? And, should I bring his hen into the house, too, so she doesn't get "stolen" by another cockbird while he's gone? (They have only been together since July so I don't know how strong their bond is; his previous hen died last May.)

The Antibiotic Eye Ointment should have a soothing effect.
Possibly he did scratch or injure his Eye, which then led to an infection or infections opportuning.
When you have been applying the Ointment so far, are you laying a tiny 'squig' at the top of the upper Lid, so it can then melt, and, distribute itself down into the entire Eye?

OK, I'll continue with the ointment. Yes to the 'squig' as well as patting some around the rest of the inflamed area.

[rfboyer]

Originally Posted by Dobato

Robin, you may need to balance you medicine cabinet a little better, lots of sulfa based drugs, but it would be nice to have Baytril and a drug from the tetracycline family as well, if you could keep some Doxycycline on hand, this would be good. I think I am see some nasal discharge, and is he sneezing and does he have any new resistance to flight, where he does not really want to fly?

Karyn

I haven't noticed Velvet sneezing... or any decrease in wanting to fly, though he's a prisoner and only gets to fly around inside the loft; the aviary is not big enough to fly in (my birds are still down at Lou's; will be at my loft with much bigger aviary soon). He has to fly if he wants to sit on his nest; it's on the top row, and food, water, and twigs (tobacco stems) are down low.

I see several kinds of doxycycline at the suppliers' sites; which kind is best? Or are there several "best" depending on the circumstances?

What strength and formulation of Baytril is best for pigeons? My vet said they use several different kinds, depending on the situation, but didn't know which is appropriate for pigeons. I see a few places online selling it that don't require a Rx... may try one of those once I know what I'm looking for.

ETA: latest poop

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by rfboyer

I have 2 strengths:
100mg that are coated pills (supposed to be better tolerated when digestion is in disorder)
60mg - package claims "1 pill, 1 day" (which is probably "underkill," right?)

Far as the Birds I get in, no way is a one-time dose going to more than begin to maybe start a regimen.

But, 60 mG in 24 hours, either at one time, or, two 30 mG doses 12 hours apart, would likely be about right for one of his size/weight.

You can just break a Tablet in half, and break each half in half, thus making four smaller and very easy to swallow bits...so, easy then to have him on your lap, open his Beak, and put in one or two parts.

Any sharp edge will do, formica edge, whatever to break a Tablet like that.

If I keep him in the house for the week I give this, is there anything special I should do to reacclimate him to being in a relatively cold loft when he's better?

He will not need anything for getting re-adjusted to the Loft...

And, should I bring his hen into the house, too, so she doesn't get "stolen" by another cockbird while he's gone? (They have only been together since July so I don't know how strong their bond is; his previous hen died last May.)

Might be a good idea, and good for both their moralle to keep them together.



Look around the loft also for any signs of 'flat, paint-like' Urates...in case anyone else is coming down with Canker or other illness which can have that effect.

OK, I'll continue with the ointment. Yes to the 'squig' as well as patting some around the rest of the inflamed area.

I do not know anything about 'One Eye Colds'.


I have seen quite a few infected Eyes or infected Eye injuries, and, these cleared up with the Opthomological Antibiotic Ointment...or, that and Oral doses of Pennicillin in one instance, where the infection was really outrageously heavy and seemed to require something else or additionally, and, in that instance, the Pennicillin appeared to do the trick. But I stayed on with the Ointment as well.



Given you have not seen any resolution to his inflamed Eye so far, Pennicillin might be something to consider.


He could have just happened to get a One Eye Cold I guess, after possibly injuring his Eye on the Brim of your Hat.

Or, he injured his Eye and then also had several kinds of Bacteria begin to infect it, where, the Antibiotic Ointment took care of some of the Bacteria, but, other kinds of Bacteria may remain vexing his Eye.



Phil
Las Vegas

[Dobato]

Robin, if you get the Birdbiotic (from Thomas Labs), which are 100mg Doxycycline capsules, you should be good and if your Vet will give you say 25mL of 5% or 10% Baytril to have on hand, you should be good with this as well. With the Metronidazole, the 100mg pills you have should not, IMHO, be given in most circumstances, as this would be at or above the highest range I've seen recommended for Metronidazole dosing of 250mg/kg q24h. The most common dosing suggestion I have seen for Metronidazole, and the one I almost always use, for pigeons is either 50mg/kg q12h or 100mg/kg q24h, which means a 350g bird should get 17.5mg twice a day or 35mg once a day. There a a few companies that make either a 60mg pill or a 62.5 mg for once a day dosing, which I myself consider the higher range of dosing, but seem to be in common use for our birds and I have not, as yet, heard of any ill effects from using this higher dose. If anything I would give 1/2 of one of the 60mg pills, q12h, for 4 days, as the common recommended dosing schedule for this size pill/dose is for 3-5 days.

The thing with one eye colds is that many times they are just a localized infection that either an antibiotic ointments/drops will help clear up. However, sometimes, what the picture shows, is a symptom of a systemic infection sometimes cause by bacteria, either chlamydia or mycoplasma bacteria. If this were to be the case, Velvet will need either Doxycycline or Baytril for treatment, sometimes both drugs are give together for a synergistic effect.

I would isolate Velvet for now if possible, treat with the Metronidazole and if you do use something just local and topical on the eye, if it does not look like it's improving within 48h or he looks a little worse than better or other symptoms start to present I would start him on systemic antibiotics (the Chloramphenicol you have can be used until the Doxycycline comes in). If he is one of the birds that were part of your round worm problem a number of months ago and he only got flock treated I would also treat him for worms on an individual basis as well. Also, observe your other birds for any sneezing or other respiratory symptoms in them.

Karyn

[rfboyer]

Thanks, Karyn & Phil...

I've given Velvet the metronidazole and put fresh ointment on his eye, and tucked him in for the night.
He is isolated; I brought him into the house this afternoon.
In his cage he has a drinker, with plain water in it right now, and a small dish of the usual seed mix I feed, with some extra safflower seeds on top as a peace offering
(since I know he will be awake way before I am in the morning)

[Dobato]

Sounds good, I don't know if you saw the edit I did in my post above, but I went back and mentioned the Chloramphenicol you have on hand can be used for treatment for both mycoplasma and chlamydia, until the Doxycycline arrives if need be (I will help you with dosing amounts). Will he need wormed?

Karyn

[re lee]

You can get puffer which is a powder med that you puff into the eye. Works on pink eye in cattle and works great one 1 eye colds on the birds. Most vet supply places will have it.

[rfboyer]

Originally Posted by Dobato

Sounds good, I don't know if you saw the edit I did in my post above, but I went back and mentioned the Chloramphenicol you have on hand can be used for treatment for both mycoplasma and chlamydia, until the Doxycycline arrives if need be (I will help you with dosing amounts). Will he need wormed?

Karyn

Velvet has been part of the flock since the roundworm problem, but I don't recall finding evidence of worms in the droppings in "his" nest box the last two times I flock-treated for worms (granted that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...) but I can give direct dose of ivermectin or worm-out gel if necessary. Would there be a connection between the eye problem and worms?

The Chloramphenicol are tabs of 250mg... what is recommended pigeon dose? The label only gives information for dogs. I have a good sharp pill splitter...

I heard some, but not a lot of sneezing in general about a month ago, when all of the birds were moulting heavily, generally during preening and sometimes after drinking with excess enthusiasm, but haven't noticed any other signs of respiratory problems. Now they seem to be mostly done moulting and there's very rare sneezing.

[Dobato]

Originally Posted by rfboyer

Velvet has been part of the flock since the roundworm problem, but I don't recall finding evidence of worms in the droppings in "his" nest box the last two times I flock-treated for worms (granted that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...) but I can give direct dose of ivermectin or worm-out gel if necessary. Would there be a connection between the eye problem and worms?

The Chloramphenicol are tabs of 250mg... what is recommended pigeon dose? The label only gives information for dogs. I have a good sharp pill splitter...

I heard some, but not a lot of sneezing in general about a month ago, when all of the birds were moulting heavily, generally during preening and sometimes after drinking with excess enthusiasm, but haven't noticed any other signs of respiratory problems. Now they seem to be mostly done moulting and there's very rare sneezing.

No direct connection per se, other that a worm infection could weaken his system in general and make him more vulnerable to infection, but there is something reminiscent of your first photo of his droppings that has a look to it of few photos you've posted before minus the worms, when you had that problem. I would use the Ivermectin you have, just as you used it before, and see if he produces any worms.

The dosing for Chloramphenicol is 100mg/kg q12h, this means that if Velvet weighed in at 375mg, he would receive a dose 37.5mg of Chloramphenicol every 12 hours (if he weighs more or less and you need help calculating the dose, let me know). Might be best to crush 2 pills up as fine as you can and add 5mL of pancake syrup to this and stir in well (this will be a 10% suspension 100mg/mL) and dose with a 1cc syringe at the 0.37cc mark (this is about 6 1/2 drops) a little at a time to the front of his mouth and let him tongue it down. Refrigerate between use and stir very well before drawing a dose.

OK, good with your other birds, this may be something localized and may respond quickly to localized treatment, but you are at least prepared now for other eventualities.

Karyn