Injured Feral. Wounds Under Wing

[amyable]

Stevia Extract, now that's a new one to me, I haven't heard of that.

I think that's where I read in a thread about diluting peroxide.
I'd still be a little wary of using it as I have two strengths at home and so it is would be hard to know if I had got the dilution correct and would take the risk of damaging the tissue. Honey sounds like a much 'sweeter' way to treat him.

Janet

[TheSnipes]

I wonder, does anyone know if 'intracite' is sold in the US and under what name?

I am going to have to get some of this Neem oil to have on hand. However...I can't picture putting honey in a wound? Very intriguing.

That bird's wounds look very like what my Mooch had when she was rescued from a hawk. Enormous wound under her wing, in the same spot, as your bird's larger hole. I only have seen it as a healed wound, tho. It left a large divit.

[cyro51]

I wonder, does anyone know if 'intracite' is sold in the US and under what name?

As far as I can make out it is called IntraSite in the US.

http://global.smith-nephew.com/us/IN...RESSG_7260.htm

[amyable]

Hi Snipes, Do you know how long it took Mooch's wound to heal over?

I've got what I think is the last bit of necrotic tissue out of the wound today.
It looked to be about the size of the piece I couldn't get hold of when I took the main plug out.
I used the Intracite for the first two days but have in fact used the Manuka Honey for the last two.
The wound still looks as large as it did initially but hopefully now it will be able to heal better.
I might carry on with the Intracite for a few more days to make sure it's as clean as possible in there.

I've put 'Charlie Farley', as he seems to be called at the moment, in the potting shed during the day now with Danni, so they both have company and can have a fly.

It's funny they seemed really pleased to see each other and spent ages preening initially. Danni always likes to sit on a shelf at the top of the shed. When Charlie went in, he flew straight up to the shelf and Danni was demoted to the next perch down. Then Danni decided he wanted his place back, so returned, then Charlie moved down. They mostly sit on separate perches and I although Danni seems to want to be friends and shuffles over to sit by him, there isn't much coming back from Charlie, although no hostility. I assume they must be the same sex, whatever that might be!

Janet

[cyro51]

Hi Janet,

That is good news!

My Delorious and her friend Holly seem to have the same relationship as Danni and Charlie. They seem to appreciate having another pigeon around.

Cynthia

[amyable]

I don't know if this wound is going ok, hopefully it is. I am still flushing it twice a day and putting Manuka Honey in the hole. Since I got that last bit of gunk out, have just assumed it would start to heal up.
It looks as if it is, as the outer edge has closed in somewhat. However, when I bathe it, I can see the hole is the same.
Today I saw a small tissue like dot and decided to just pick it out to keep the hole clear. Don't cringe when I say I used a crochet hook instead of a pair of tweezers. It has a blunt end, so can't pearce the skin, and has a tiny hook. It worked well, so well in fact as when I picked at this small piece, I actually pulled another lump of 'gunk' out. So there is still more in there and so the hole is just as deep as before.

I don't know if I can explain myself well enough for anyone to understand, but I'll try. The edge of the wound is rounded, as opposed to jagged as a new wound would be like. It's a though the wound has healed around the edge when the black necrotic tissue was jammed in the wound. Maybe the skin has healed up around the stuff that was blocking the hole, does that make sense?
Do you think as this wound is old and quite deep that it will ever fill in and heal up to the surface, filling the gap, or is it possible that surface skin will just heal over, leaving a permanent hole underneath?

I am assuming that I still have to try and stop the top from healing over while there is still a hole in his body.

I also started him back on to Synulox as it was bleeding very slightly, is that ok? I've bathed it, sprayed antiseptic wound spray into the hole, and also put Intracite Gel in it again tonight.

Thanks, Janet

[cyro51]

Hi Janet,

The crochet hook was an excellent idea, just make certain that it is sterilised before you use it, "just in case".

I can only go by Little Red Feet's experience, the hole that the removal of the necrotic plug left was as thick and as long as the top portion of my thumb, but new healthy tissue started to build up at the bottom of the wound once it was clear of necrotic tissue. Her wound was at least a month old when I removed the plug. "Gunk" will continue to surface at the bottom of the hole until the wound is clean.

Synulox is OK, just remember to complete the course.

Cynthia

[amyable]

I have just got another small piece of muck out.

Cynthia, the hole isn't as large as Little Red Feet's by the sound of it, it might be better if it was then it would make it easier to see when it is finally clean. Unfortunately the outside of the wound is now a slim line but once inside it goes wider, so I have to very gently probe with the hook to see if anything comes away. Of course when I thought I'd found the end of the hole before, I was probably still hitting the solid muck.
So really as long as muck is coming out I shouldn't expect it to heal then.

I'll keep at it though and treat the Synulox as if it's a new course, thanks.

Janet

[Pidgey]

Yes, it won't completely heal until the garbage is out. I've had to do some of those like that with forceps and an otoscope to see inside. I figure that I'm doing the bird a favor when I do it because both my vets are a tad on the heavy-handed side due to time being money.

Pidgey

[amyable]

I wonder if anyone can say how long it should take roughly for a hole like this pigeon had to heal up from inside. It seems to be taking longer than I expected.

I'm fairly sure there can't be any gunk in there now but at it's worst the hole went in at least 3cms.
I have been bathing and putting in the Intracite Gel each day, and taking off the scab from the surface. It did appear to be almost healed over a few days ago but today I can see a gap still around the edge of the wound. It goes in about 1cm deep now. I was just wondering if I should leave it well alone now or if I need to keep the debriding up until the hole is completely full.

Hope this question makes sense, I didn't know what would happen if it healed over with a small hole still evident.


Janet

[Pidgey]

You might try defining the size of the thing in terms of the volume of something tangible like a grape, a raisin... something that's the same everywhere. Eventually, Pierpont's hole became like a tiny navel that had its own dry epithelium. I just let it go. You might just let this one scab over and handle itself for awhile to see how it does. You're always worrying that it'll make a tracking abscess but at this late date, I wouldn't be as worried about that. Picture?

Pidgey

[amyable]

Hi Pidgey,

Just went to get a new picture. There is a hard white something running through the middle of the hole, almost bone like hardness as opposed to tissue or skin that would have some give in it. You might just see it on the picture. Any idea what would be there under the skin at that point. It hasn't always been there, it appeared the last week I would say.

Size wise, this is difficult, I would compare the hole now to a small raisin, (I've just eaten half a box while comparing the sizes which all vary somewhat). The hole is approx 1/2cm in depth, 1cm long. It really looked much more healed a couple of days ago, but today it looks a bit red. That's why I'm wondering if I should have left it alone.

Appreciate you may not be able to say much from my garbled description but here's the photo anyway. Thanks

[amyable]

I've left the wound well alone for the last few days as I thought it should just finish off and fill in.
I've just looked to see how it's going and it looks strange.
The last picture I posted shows the hole but I said there was a hard white something in the middle. Now the hole is filled by this hard 'whatever' but there is still a gap around it. (The hole looks like the last picture but is filled by this stuff).
Am I looking at a possible tracking abscess?
I got my tweezers and picked a piece out and looking at it under a magnifying glass, it is like yellow coloured tissue maybe, but hard. It goes deep so I'm thinking it might go in as far as the initial wound did.
How do I treat it if it is an abscess, I know my vet wouldn't operate so I don't know whether I should let him have a look.
I wondered if I kept picking it out from the top, a bit of a time, would it work it's way up?

[Pidgey]

Well, I'm sorry that I didn't see your earlier picture. Threads can get buried here pretty quickly anymore, it seems. That stuff is kinda' like... scab material, only a lot whiter. Say this mantra over and over to yourself: "Avian heterophils lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue." That means that they can't haul off certain garbage as well as we can and some debris can form objects that they can only try to form a granuloma around. I can tell you what my vet would do--he'd reach in with a straight hemostat or some very rugged forceps and drag the thing out by main force. Without an anaesthetic. I've seen him do it. Several times.

If you want to give that a shot, go ahead. I've usually tried to be a little less heavy handed, using lighter and more slender forceps to reach in and pull crap like that out in more manageable pieces. It often requires the use of an otoscope, head-mounted magnifier with light, jeweler's loup & flashlight or something like that to actually see what you're doing. You can irrigate it with saline and keep it that way to soften the debris up. Bottom line, though, is that it pretty much has to come out before the hole will finally fill in and seal off.

Pidgey

[amyable]

Funny I had a feeling that's what you were going to suggest.
I did have a go with a medical pair of tweezers, long and thin, this stuff does seem to be stuck in very hard. I'll try softening first as it goes in at least 3cms but unfortunately narrows, and it goes forward into the chest, pretty well impossible to see the end.
I'm gutted as I have been debriding it every day and packing it with gel, I could have sworn it was clear.

Thanks, will give it a go. This could be a time to use Metacam.