Need help! Very sick, possibly egg bound too?

[melissasue1968]

About a week+ ago someone brought me two sick birds they found on their doorstep. Fantails, one white and one brown. They both where literally starving. No breast muscle, and had/still have severe respiratory infection. They where gurgly at times-now still very sick, open mouthed breathing, tails bobbing with every breath. I put them on Bayrtril, and as they didn't seem much better after several days I called the vet (thank God I finally found one here who knows something about birds-not sure how good he is yet but...) he said to go ahead and change the antibiotic to tetracycline which I did. It has been three days, I can't see any great improvement, but maybe a little less open mouthed breathing. Both birds are eating and drinking although one has put on more weight than the other. I started hand feeding and watering them about the same time I switched antibiotics, I honestly have been surprised that they made it the last couple of days. They where so emaciated.
The white bird has been trying to 'nest in the food bowl since they came. This past evening/night she has been letting her wings droop below her body and her lower back seems to be raised and the feathers there are fluffed out-seperated-know what I mean? The posture made me think possibly egg bound. So I felt the area. I don't feel anything at the vent, I feel the pelvic bone then there should be a soft space right? With nothing really noticeable to feel-just soft tissue? Well between the pelvic bone and the base of the keel I feel something, though not hard like and egg, but sort of oval shaped and rather firm, but feels a little flat on the ventral side-could this be an egg that is a little soft and/or malformed? Or could it be some internal organ that has swollen due to disease?
I checked the other bird also. I felt something similar, but this very firm lumpish thing is much higher up more like under the base of the keel.
I've been searching for similar threads, but I haven't found one that is quite the same. Nobody has mentioned exactly where the egg should be, or what it feels like. That is of course if it is indeed an egg...
Their mouths and throats are clean and pink, droppings are sometimes rather large and dark green with some white, and usually well formed. One that was kind of meally brown that I found by accident after examining the white bird--I felt a tickle on my nose and having not washed my hands yet, rubbed at it with my arm-UGH! pijjie poo in the nostril is not a nice thing!
They are getting vitamins, pickstone and crushed eggshells, the tetracycline, food and water of course, and have a heating pad under part of their cage, and I just put a nest box in with them because they both seem to want to nest in the food dishes. They are using it-rather one is-she/he kicked the other one out.
I'm thinking I couldn't possibly have been brought two birds found on someone's doorstep, turn out to be fantails, that have the same illness---and then both have eggs and end up becoming eggbound.......the odds must be astronomical....
I can't get them to the vet for probably two days still-that is if they make it. I really hope they do. They are very sweet pijjies.
What should I do? Should I try giving the hunched up one olive oil down the throat? If so how much, and is extra virg. OK? I haven't been able to find mineral oil here. I also have sunflower or corn oil. Would this hurt them or cause further problems if she is not egg bound?
Thanks for any help/suggestions you may have.
Worried, Melissa

[TerriB]

I've noticed that some of the hens will have that arched back "getting ready to lay an egg" look a day or so before they lay. Offering some additional heat seems to help, as does offering high oil seed (safflower, hemp).

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi Melissa,

Thank goodness you were brought these desparate pigeons!!! They sounded to be in horrible shape when you got them.

I'm not really sure if egg binding is a problem here or not, but by your description, it certainly sounds possible. You are correct that you can give the birds olive oil down the throat and this usually helps a lot. Just a drop or two for each bird is enough. You can use olive, virgin olive oil, corn, sunflower. Some people use cod liver oil as well, from a gel cap. Just break open a gel cap and squeeze a couple of drops down the throat.

If the birds have been acting eggbound for more than 2 days, it's unlikely that they actually are because it's a serious condition and if the egg(s) aren't expelled, it will usually kill them very quickly.

Also, tetracycline (I believe) binds with calcium and makes it ineffective. So, once the antibiotic treatment is finished, you may want to increase the calcium for the birds. Either by offering crushed, boiled and sterile eggshells or even one regular Tums antacid dissolved into their drinking water.

Good luck and hoping for the best for you & the fantails,

[Pigeonpal2002]

Hi again Melissa,

Sorry I wasn't clear in my last post about the tetracycline. You should remove all sources of calcium in grits, pickstones etc while giving tetracycline because it makes the meds useless. Calcium and it's sources should be given after the treatments are finished.

[pdpbison]

....yahhhhh, as i recall to have heard, warm Baths for them may aide in Egg-Bound occasions...


A Heating Pad for their night-rest also...



However, can you say what so far, their Poops look like?


Are they eating allright?


...have you checked their throats for signs of Canker?


Phil
Las Vegas

[Pidgey]

Melissa,

Go here and read this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10686

That sounds very much like what Winter had. It's a lot easier surgery than you might think. There are two kinds of egg binding: the one where the egg won't pass out of the cloaca which means that they can neither poop nor urinate and, therefore, die of peritonitis and kidney failure; and the other one (rare) where the egg stalls out in the oviduct before it passes into the cloaca.

If it's what Winter had, you need to build the birds up (food, water and supportive medications for the probable coccidiosis, infections, etc) until they're capable of making it through the surgery.

If your vet needs info that describes Forane (Isoflurane) flow rates, equipment and procedures because he's never done anything like that, I can supply it by email.

Your vet can look up the vent with an otoscope (like a doctor looks in your ears with) to see if there's any evidence of a infection or debris but he'll need to look up into the urodeum to see the vaginal entrance if the oviduct is the problem. For that matter, he can see everything that way although it's a bit confusing so I'm going to post an illustration of the cloacal structure on my webshots page and post the link here:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...24330288HVnonE

There is a type of otoscope that utilizes a squeeze-bulb like a sphygmomanometer (old blood pressure checker) that can "inflate" what you're looking into and that can be helpful here. There are such things as tumors and the like that they can get and some would show up in there.

By the way, in real egg-binding, the oil is usually tubed up into the vent, sort of like with tube-feeding down the throat. The big trick is to get (imagine the bird laying on its back) down below the fold that separates the coprodeum from the urodeum. You really want to get into the urodeum. And if there were an egg stuck at the vaginal canal, it would really be nice to work the tube into that. But, it's usually enough just to get the oil into the urodeum and then gently massage the area to try to work the oil in deeper to get to the egg.

Can you post pictures of these birds?

Pidgey

[melissasue1968]

Thanks everyone -Terri, Brad, Phil, Pidgey!
I checked the white bird again, the mass felt a little lower and I can easily isolate it and gently move it side to side. It is still above the pelvic bones. I gave xv olive oil as you suggested. About 0.4ml. Some have said a couple of drops, and others a dropperful. So I decided to give somewhere in the middle . I removed the pickstone/eggshells. I should have thought of that before-Duh...
Just waiting now to see if anything comes out. How long before I may see results if it is an egg? Continuing the heating pad. She is trying to worm her way into the nest box, but the other bird won't let her in. I really want to seperate them, but I don't have any extra cage large enough for a pigeon at the moment. The ones I could use have birds in them with eggs now . (Hopefully they'll hatch this time!)
I could maybe put her in a laundry basket and collapse a small budgie cage to use for a top. It's really small though-one of those round ones.
I read your thread Pidgey-it is great info! It does have a lot of similarities to your Winter's case. I'm glad it was made a sticky! I can't open the other one about the anatomy though. They have a lot of censoring here, and sometimes they block things they think might be *exual! I have several times been reading a thread here that mentions feeling the b*reast muscle of the bird and suddenly the page will disappear and a message comes up that the page I was viewing has been blocked, access is not allowed! AArrgghh! I can send a request to them to unblock it, but it takes a while for them to process...
Anyway back to the birds. Their throats/mouths are pink and there are no signs of canker that I can see. Poops are good, pretty large sometimes, this I have attributed to the fact that I am hand feeding them in addition to what they eat themselves. I have cut back to only twice a day now. Trying to build them up fast. I don't have a gram scale (wish I could find one here!) but I can feel that they are gaining rapidly-they feel heavier-when they first came they where like air, now they have some weight to them, and I could completely encircle their bodies in one hand, now the brown one I have to use two hands, the white one has been slower to gain, but she is finally starting to gain, I can feel some muscle building up where there was none-only bone!
I'm holding off on the warm bath for the moment. They really could use a bath besides all these other problems-but with their respiratory status I am leary of causing a chill. But it may be life or death if this an egg so if I don't see results from the olive oil I will probably try some moist heat with a heating pad wrapped in plastic or better yet I have an ice pack that I can fill with warm water and a damp cloth to the area.
The brown bird when I checked I can't feel the lumpish thing in the abdomen anymore. Perhaps it was a bit of swollen intestine??
They are still exhibiting the open mouth breathing, though not quite as bad. I hope they are getting better overall, and I am not just fooling myself into thinking they are improving.... I get so involved in these birds....
I'll stop this novel for now, and I'll keep you updated with any changes.
I have to go shopping in a while so they will be alone for a couple of hours. Maybe that's a good thing, they won't have two giant eyeballs staring at them every few minutes!
Thanks for staying with me on this!
Always, Melissa

[melissasue1968]

I forgot to say unfortunately I can't post any pics. Still haven't figured out how to get the pictures from my husbands phone into the computer....
Maybe I'll try to work on that now. I will stop obsessing with the birds !
M.

[Trees Gray]

Hi Mellissasue,

So, you have got yourself another project huh? You really are doing a terrific job by these birds.

You have gotten some great advice and I'm here just to follow up on a few things.

If she is eggbound, the egg should come today or tomorrow. Keep her isolated so she is not stressed by other birds, and on the warm heating pad. She needs to be relaxed and feel comfortable so she will release the egg.

1/2 of a dropperful is fine, no more. You can give her one more dose tomorrow if she doesn't lay an egg, or act better. You should definitely take the bird to your avian vet if there is not egg, as this can be dangerous as Pidgey already spoke about.

I pretty much keep an eye on my hens now, they are pretty regular and if there is no egg when it is expected, then they are either eggbound, or something more is going on, maybe a back up, stuck egg, we don't know so it is mandatory to take a trip to the vet. I keep a record on paper, so I remember it. Sometimes they don't even have that "huntch back" look, but you know per the schedule she should have laid an egg. Then it is time to take action.

LOL I think my birds think I'm overbearing too! They always look like they are saying "Oh, here she comes again.."


Treesa

[pigeonmama]

Pidgey,
How is Winter doing now? Hope she is happy and well.
Daryl

[AZWhitefeather]

Hello Malissasue,
If you are giving the birds plain water, may I suggest giving them a bit of 'rehydrating solution'.
To a cup of water add a pinch of each, salt & sugar. This is to be given at room temperature.
When we are presented with an ill or injured bird, they often times need a boost & the plain water just isn't enough.

If this has already been suggested & I missed it, please excuse the duplication.

Cindy

[pdpbison]

...too, in lieu of warm Baths, a heating pad insulated with being put into a secure plastic bag, may have a damp towell put on it for the Bird to rest on, which will humidify their underside.

Calcium, and the complimentary nutrients which aid in it's assimilation ( fats usually, which Olive Oil supplies in addition to that of wholesme Seeds) of course also plays important roles in the quality of muscle elasticity, and hence could be of interest in scenarios of the possibly Egg-Bound.


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas

[Pidgey]

Daryl,

Winter's doing just fine although her ole' man gets on her case because she's not making any eggs. I help her out by putting a plaster egg underneath where she's standing and she winks at me because she knows that'll shut him up for a few weeks. I haven't detected any new swellings since that last surgery so at least that worked, I guess.

Melissa,

I posted that illustration on this actual thread just in case they don't censor Pigeons.com. Also, your vet can use an otoscope to do an exploratory through the abdominal wall to look at things so that it wouldn't require a huge incision. That's just a suggestion. Personally, I think Winter's vet, given the choice, would just open the bird up and look because they seem to take it remarkably well.

Pidgey

[melissasue1968]

I had to get off the computer last night (3-4hours ago) before I could post again. -baby crying-
They are both still hanging in there. The white bird my son has dubbed "Fanny" has not passed an egg yet. She is still acting the same. However now when I palpate I can feel the other end of the 'egg'. I am convinced almost completely now that it is indeed an egg. I can get my finger behind it and the shape is just as it should be for an egg.
I'm wondering-maybe she is just in the process of making the egg and is not "bound"?? If she where to be just normally getting ready to lay an egg, would I be able to feel it in there anyway? And if so how long before it should be laid? She is not pushing or looking like she is trying to expel anything. Still eating and pooping fine-considering the resp. infection that is. If she had mated before she got lost from her owner it probably would have been about 8-10 days ago at least. I haven't seen any activity of that kind from the two of them, and I think they are too sick respiratory wise anyway to manage it. They haven't acted like a pair-rather like two who tolerate each other-occasionally pecking at one another. Nothing serious, but not loving. They are in a rather small space though. My son said he saw Fanny cleaning "Skippies" head feathers...?...
She still sits hunched up, but is this possibly due to the resp. infection? Do fantails sit like that when they are simply stressed or sleeping? I noticed that when I lift the cover at night they are both sitting with the drooping tail/hunched back. Maybe I am making something more out of this than need be? If she is egg bound would she be trying to push?
Should I try to infuse some oil into the cloaca-from your diagram Pidgey-I should aim up rather than down? How much, and can I use olive oil or sunflower or carn oil? I haven't been able to get any mineral oil here that doesn't have perfume added ie Johnsons baby oil.
Oh....baby again! More later!
Thanks, Melissa

[Pidgey]

Well, let's say that it's not like Winter and that this is an egg. In that case, you have to understand that it's not like a human pregnancy or labor. That is to say that it's only passing the egg from the urodeum chamber out of the vent that resembles the strain of delivery as it presents in a human. If there is an egg further up in the uterus, the bird's not as concerned about it.

I haven't read anything significant about that second type of egg-binding. I only researched it a little back in February-ish when I thought that was Winter's problem. I could feel that same egg-like thing that I could move all the way back to the vent area but couldn't get her to pass.

However, when I tried, I used mineral oil because that's what I'd read. Not knowing the anatomy at the time, I probably gave the poor bird an oil enema instead. At least she wasn't constipated.

I do remember reading that a "drooping tail/hunched back" was the symptom for abdominal pain and later today I'll try to include a post about "egg related peritonitis" which is what those symptoms sound like, including the respiratory problem.

Okay, from pages 771 to 772 of AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION it says that it's the most common cause of death when you're talking reproductive disorders. There are many different ways that it can happen and they aren't sure whether the oviduct ruptures first or if the peritonitis happens first. It could even be that the yolk of the forming egg is infected before the egg is even complete. You just get anything from a mildly sick bird to a pretty quick death. Signs are general ill health plus masses that you can feel in the abdomen, breathing distress, reduced egg production. Such a bird usually needs antibiotics in the worst way and if garbage has spilled into the abdominal cavity then surgery's a must but you have to make sure that the bird's been stabilized or even built back up before trying that.

Pidgey