Pierpont-Fistula and Injury

[feralpigeon]

So, I read here that the granite gravel was alright to use with anti-biotics, as opposed to the "soft" grits, does anyone no for sure that this would be true?

fp

[Pidgey]

I've no idea what's in granite! Bird's stomach acid is pretty powerful stuff and if there's any calcium in there, they could certainly break it down unless it was vitrified with some other glassine component like silica. Granite is an igneous formation so will have to look into that. But, it's probably more complicated than that due to not knowing if the grit manufacturer "doctored" the mix with any limestone for the sake of adding calcium.

I think it's probably just best to remove grit when in doubt. It's also best not to use Baytril-treated water to mix with Kaytee because there's enough calcium in the Kaytee to bind the Baytril.

I'll see if I can find something today more definitive about all that and we really need a formulary in our resources section anyway so maybe we can make an all-inclusive thread there with respect to that.

Pierpoint, by the way, is getting more explorative on the table so he's doing fine for the moment. I don't see any evidence of spreading infection (that's one jagged cut!) and he's starting to fly the two feet back to the table from my hand. I've got the homing pigeon with the broken wing hanging on the same table and I've caught Pierpont down there standing by him for company or curiosity, I don't know.

He's probably talking to him, "what the &@%# are THEY doing to you? Look at what THEY did to me! Can you believe these people--what did we ever do to them?"

Pidgey

[feralpigeon]

Hi Pidgey,

This isn't the link that I was referring to however, I think it works here. A post from Amber:

In my experience, the grit is what the birds use to help 'hull' there food to make it digestable for them, the cuttlebone has the calcium. It is similar in consistency with oyster shell which is high in calcium. You can buy "Red grit" which is grit that has calcium added to it, but if it is just plain granite grit then there is no calcium in it, and you must fortify there diet with it. Some people dont, but especially if you have a female bird, it is very important to provide calcium. Hope this helps.

Amber

There are no additives in F.Thijssen C.V.'s Sharp Stomach Gravel for Carrier Pigeons. "....is ground, washed, burned, clean, pure and without additions. Consequently no charcoal or ruddle." It remains in gizzard for many weeks as opposed to round gravel and does not affect the intestinal canal unfavorably.

I don't think they 'process' this grit, it simply helps grind seeds for digestion.
Think that is why the other post I read said it was OK w/anti-biotics.

fp

[Pidgey]

Well, shoot!

I'm reading everything and there is some conflicting info "out there" on Baytril and grit. As I've looked deeper into Baytril, it's Enrofloxacin and is considered one of the "big guns" of antibiotics. For human use, it's actually Ciprofloxacin so Baytril and Cipro are just about identical, I guess. Cipro is used to treat anthrax. Some of the racing pigeon stuff that I read said that the widespread use of Baytril in loft management as a precautionary is REALLY a bad practice. I only use it for specific birds and NEVER treat the entire loft "for the h*** of it" SO I'M INNOCENT!!!

Anyhow, I may have spoken out of turn about the Baytril because I've read too much racing pigeon stuff and sales blurbs. Looks like an in-depth research of the REAL information is in order, but I'd guess at this point that you're probably quite right, Feralpigeon.

Pidgey

[pigeonmama]

Pidgey,
Baytril is a wonderful drug if used correctly. Last I heard, the industrial poultry farms are planning on banning use of Baytril in chickens, those raised for food, and those for egg supply. Just something I heard recently.
Daryl

[Reti]

[quote=pigeonmama]Pidgey,
Baytril is a wonderful drug if used correctly.



Yes, it is. And it is very important to be used only if really needed. If used for every little thing the bacteria will develop resistance to it and then we will have some superbugs and no treatment for them.
This goes for all antibiotics.

Reti

[Pidgey]

Thanks, Reti,

That's what I was getting at. As I work through the formulary, it's obvious that many of the lesser antibiotics often require specific labwork to assure successful results. That is, you need to type the bacteria of a suspected infection by gram-staining, microscopy and other esoteric labwork in order to get specific with an antibiotic that has "just enough" power to take on an infection.

This approach assumes that you are able to identify a particular location on or in a pigeon that is the "ground zero" of an infection, never mind when a bird's gotten a crapload of pure dirt or filth in a wound and you've no idea what all various pathogens are included. With the vagaries of all that, it's no wonder that Baytril gets called into play all too often--it's a very big gun and that's why it works so well and everyone uses it too much.

And most folks have no earthly idea whatsoever what else could be used with a given set of symptoms. A lot of the info that's "out there" on the internet is confusing and inexact. I keep finding misconceptions that I myself am harboring because of having read too much from folks that really didn't know what they were talking about. I'm getting to the point where I can't believe it unless I can't read it. Yeah, you read that right--there's no typo! I meant that if it's not written in pure medicalese, it's probably not reputable.

On the practical side though, people won't stop using Baytril or even use it with restraint unless they have good, reliable information as to the alternatives in various cases. And that must include how to acquire those alternatives. It's easy to go to Chevita.com and go down the list of symptoms, diagnose and then medicate by the numbers. But I never dreamed it could be as complex as it really is until I acquired that vet book and started really getting into it.

As comprehensive as the chevita diagnostic page seems to be, it falls horrifically short of the reality of how diseases present and how they are clinically diagnosed (lab). It's "shoot from the hip" at best and a sales job at the worst. Well, that's my basic impression at this point anyway.

And for the limited amount of rehabbers who regularly visit this forum (this means us), the use of Baytril is not a very big sin because we do use it bird by bird (I don't think I've gone through 4 ounces in as many years). Now, some of those large-loft racer folk who go through the stuff by the gallon, that's certainly not a good thing and there's a LOT more of them than us.

Pidgey

[pdpbison]

Excellent work Pidgey...!

Phil
las vegas

[Pidgey]

Update on Pierpont,

Over the weekend his sutures started coming unravelled and it was just about every one of them. I've never seen that happen before but they sure did. I had to re-stitch almost the entire bird back up. Now, it was probably a good thing they did because it revealed some necrotic tissue that was starting to stink and turn into something resembling partially dried boogers (descriptive, eh?). I cleaned out all that junk that I could find and bathed him in NeoSporin again.

I called the vet today to ask about that as well as that the flaps of skin had developed edges that were already completely sealed when I took him in one week ago. I told him that they had not changed nor had they tried to grow together from the first stitching. The vet said that they would eventually. I countered with it sure seemed to me like there's a lot of scar tissue on the edges. The vet went on to say that this bird didn't have a lot of skin left and that we couldn't trim much off to encourage a union for that very reason.

I also asked if we should change from the Baytril to the Keflex (Cephalexin, a cephalosporin) and he thought that might be good to ADD in order to arrest the further advancement of necrotizing bugs. I think he sees it that way now because the poor bird was in such pitiful shape to start with and doesn't have excess flesh to allow losing much more.

Otherwise, Pierpont is just as feisty a pigeon as he's been so he's at least on a plateau and not going downhill although I got a good wing-flipping this morning! It's hard to tell, but I think his breast muscles are beginning to feel less hollow as well. He's certainly got plenty of appetite.

But I naively thought a week ago that his convalescence would just about be over by now. At this rate, it's going to be two or three weeks more before those actual wounds heal and I'm wondering if I'm eventually going to have to scrape between the stitches with a scalpel to debride enough of the scar tissue to allow for a union to form. Anybody have any experience with something like that?

Pidgey

[Reti]

[I'm wondering if I'm eventually going to have to scrape between the stitches with a scalpel to debride enough of the scar tissue to allow for a union to form. Anybody have any experience with something like that?

Pidgey[/quote]



I would do that. Scar tissue does not heal and if it does (if enough healthy tissue is left in between) it will nor heal properly, there always will be a "weak point" left with a chace to reopen.

Reti

[Pidgey]

For Cynthia,

Well, I guess it's okay to use Baytril however you want (with or without grit) because the text doesn't mention anywhere that there's an interaction. About all that I can find is that tetracyclines chelate with calcium and magnesium. Also, there is some mention that iron decreases the absorption of doxycycline substantially (doxycycline is one of the tetracyclines). Zinc interferes somehow as well. Other than that, I haven't found any other conflicts between antibiotics and minerals so far.

Pidgey

[Pidgey]

Well, Pierpont is continuing to recover. It's like watching kids grow up-if they're yours, you'd swear they're NEVER going to grow up but if you're an occasional visitor it always seems like difference is remarkable.

Here's a picture of the chest with the new sutures (nobody laugh, now!):



and here's the bird:



He's gotten heavily into the wing flipping now. I expect him to start flying over TO me to INITIATE the abuse any day now.

Pidgey

[Reti]

It looks good, Pidgey.
Considering what he had and went through, it looks fabulous.
I am glad he is in good spirits too.
Well done.

Reti

[pigeonmama]

Pidgey,
Personally, I think you done good !! I can't imagine putting sutures in a critter I love as much as you do that little bird.
Daryl

[Trees Gray]

Oh, Pierpont looks great! Any abuse he gives you now,look forward to it, it is a step in the right direction, whether it be verbal or physical.

Thanks for sharing!

Treesa