Pigeon shot by bebegun?

[feralpigeon]

Nicole, they have been to med school and not every vet is a hack, jmo and
my experience. I was excoriated here for bringing a badly damaged bird, one described by many as the worst hawk attack they'd seen to an avian vet
who is certified here and in Europe. I know that not every medical doctor
is one I would want for myself, and the same may hold true for vets and our
birds, they have, none the less, had a considerable amount of education
in their field and get a serious amount of case loads doing only this for a living.

You have some medical folks helping you, why not ask if they think it a good
idea to half the pain meds...and for how much longer would they recommend
the course of pain meds. You can also ask about Phil's concerns and perhaps
they can have a second look.

You've done a good job by this pigeon bringing it into your home and keeping
it safe from further predation, I know that you will also be a good health advocate for him/her as well.

fp

[nicole]

Ok, so driving to work this morning, I found a squab. After chasing him trhough two yards, I caught up with him and brought him home. Since Lexie (pij with injured wing) is using the cage, I set up the squab in a cardboard box with seed and water and a towel to perch on. The only problems I see with the squad is it is underweight and it can't fly. No injuries and lots of energy. He's a squeaker. Do any of you foresee any problems keeping him in the same room with the other for now? Lexie is perched up high in her cage, and the squab (almost full size, btw) is in a box on the floor. The top of the box is closed to the point where he can get air and some light, but his head can't get through. I may have to crop feed him, but being as I'm at work now, that will have to wait for about five hours.

[pigeonperson]

Nicole,
There is a very easy way to protect the wing while it is healing. Use a very thin strip of duct tape and tape both wings together by the flight feathers in the rear. This will immobilize the injured wing, promote healing and prevent additional injury. Keep the tape on for about three weeks and then remove it. Depending on how thin a strip of tape you use, there will be some damage to the flight feathers but since the bird is not going to fly again anyway, it's no great loss and eventually, the feathers will moult out. Duct tape is very, very adhesive and other tapes will come loose and slip off the feathers.

What I can't tell from your post is, did the vet try to reposition the bone and suture the wound? If the bone is still projecting through the skin, this is going to fail.

[nicole]

Hi Pigeonperson.

I don't know if she repositioned the bone. She cleaned up the area and put some gauze near the wound for the bleeding and wrapped up the wing so she can't move it.

Does this mean I should bring her back in and see if I can get the bone pushed in? My intuition is telling be that the bone is still out, because I asked her if the skin would eventually scar over it. She said maybe, since it's not sticking out that much.

Man. But the pij seems to be doing fine, and has figured out her balance and is eating well.

I really don't have any time to do anything until tomorrow, since my schedule is so demanding today.

Thoughts?

[Pidgey]

Don't have an answer seeing as how there's no certainty on which bone and where or how much it's possibly sticking out.

Pidgey

[pigeonperson]

Nicole,
I don't want to second guess a vet who has seen and treated this bird especially since we don't know for sure if she repositioned the bone. A bone that has penetrated through the skin is called a compound fracture. Bone that is protruding through the skin will die and dry up plus it can cause bacterial infection to get in through the open skin.

As an example of something similar to what you are dealing with, I saw an episode of Animal Planet some time back in which a rehabber brought in a crow with a serious compound fracture. The bone was right there, protruding through the skin. The vet stated that bird wing bones do not heal well because they have a very limited amount of blood circulating through them so he made a decision to amputate the wing. The bird was put under anesthesia and the wing to be removed, was wrapped and held up by a device. The first thing they did was to locate the blood vessels coming in and going out of the wing. These vessels were tied off. The next thing they did was to locate the nerves going in and out and they were either tied off or severed. I don't know why they had to do that with the nerves. Then and only then, did they cut away soft tissue and actually amputate the wing. The wound was then sutured and the bird is back at the rehabber doing well. The vet hospital is Alameda East, a prominent organization that is on the cutting edge of new technology.

Based on the above and a generalized knowledge of wing bones, I'm surprised your vet didn't amputate the wing but again, I have no idea what the injury looks like and what your vet did to try to reduce this fracture. In any event, would it do any harm to ask if the wing should have been amputated instead of what was done? We all have a lot to learn and maybe your vet can fill in some missing gaps in our knowledge.

[nicole]

I just called and was told she is out until tomorrow (Wednesday). And Dr. Hauck (the one with tons of experience), is gone until next Monday.

She didn't suggest amputation. She suggested euthanization. I opted for a shot in the dark.

When she was handling Lexie, she looked like she knew what she was doing. She did a thorough exam, looked at both wings, legs, throat, etc. I felt fairly confident walking out of there. Now, I'm second guessing everything.

I really just want to do what's best for the pigeons. In the future, I will know what questions to ask.

That said, I really do appreciate all of your assistance. You all are a great support base and I certainly couldn't do this alone.

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by nicole

Hey, Phil.

Sorry I didn't respond to you sooner. I was on deadline and didn't see you had responded.

I requested Dr. Hauck but was told he had the day off.

Now I'm worried about the setting. I have no way to tell if its set right. Ugh. She told me that we'd be lucky if it scarred over the fractured bone. What do you think I should do?

Nic

Hi Nicole,



I would be glad to look at it and see if I think it is too tight or mis-aligned...


Phil
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[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by nicole

Hi Pigeonperson.

I don't know if she repositioned the bone. She cleaned up the area and put some gauze near the wound for the bleeding and wrapped up the wing so she can't move it.

Does this mean I should bring her back in and see if I can get the bone pushed in? My intuition is telling be that the bone is still out, because I asked her if the skin would eventually scar over it. She said maybe, since it's not sticking out that much.

Man. But the pij seems to be doing fine, and has figured out her balance and is eating well.

I really don't have any time to do anything until tomorrow, since my schedule is so demanding today.

Thoughts?

Hi Nicole,


I have had quite a few who-se broken Bones were sticking out of their skin.

The Skin indeed heals just fine in every instance I have ever seen...

If there is a large enough tear, then a few stitches are a sensible recourse.


Breaks next to a Joint are more difficult to set than breaks which are in the middle area of a long Bone...but, in thoery, they can be set also in ways which favor their correct alignment for the mending to be practical.


Phil
l v

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by pigeonperson

Nicole,
I don't want to second guess a vet who has seen and treated this bird especially since we don't know for sure if she repositioned the bone. A bone that has penetrated through the skin is called a compound fracture. Bone that is protruding through the skin will die and dry up plus it can cause bacterial infection to get in through the open skin.

As an example of something similar to what you are dealing with, I saw an episode of Animal Planet some time back in which a rehabber brought in a crow with a serious compound fracture. The bone was right there, protruding through the skin. The vet stated that bird wing bones do not heal well because they have a very limited amount of blood circulating through them so he made a decision to amputate the wing. The bird was put under anesthesia and the wing to be removed, was wrapped and held up by a device. The first thing they did was to locate the blood vessels coming in and going out of the wing. These vessels were tied off. The next thing they did was to locate the nerves going in and out and they were either tied off or severed. I don't know why they had to do that with the nerves. Then and only then, did they cut away soft tissue and actually amputate the wing. The wound was then sutured and the bird is back at the rehabber doing well. The vet hospital is Alameda East, a prominent organization that is on the cutting edge of new technology.

Based on the above and a generalized knowledge of wing bones, I'm surprised your vet didn't amputate the wing but again, I have no idea what the injury looks like and what your vet did to try to reduce this fracture. In any event, would it do any harm to ask if the wing should have been amputated instead of what was done? We all have a lot to learn and maybe your vet can fill in some missing gaps in our knowledge.

Hi PP,



This is nuts...

I have had many compound fracures of Wind Bones which ultimately healed well enough for you to not be able to tell anything had ever been wrong, and the Birds were released.

Some have not healed as well, but, the Bird can fly decently for indoor living.

Some, heal badly, and the Bird is thereafter a 'floor Bird' or at best can fly to table tops or other low areas.


It is insane to amputate a Wing merely because there was a compound fracture, or even a messy compound fracture.


If the Wing is set properly, it will heal properly...


Sadly, that is the actual bottom line here with all this...


Phil
l v

[nicole]

The name of the bone is the humerus (sp). The vet said she tried to push the bone in all the way, but because it was an open fracture, she's not sure how it's going to do. She's concerned about infection, but we've got her on antibiotics, which may help.

[Pidgey]

In a deal like that, the biggest risk isn't usually losing the bird or the wing, it's whether or not the fracture joins back together. It may result in a "non-union" which may need to be dealt with later. I've got one in the loft right now that had a very badly fractured radius, ulna and humerus. I kept that one taped up for months and it took forever for the radius and ulna to finally heal. They did, and that section of the wing's fine now. However, the humerus resulted in a non-union that I'm eventually going to take to the vet to try and get pinned or something. The bird still flaps that wing, even though it's kinda' loose. In short, he's learned to live with it and I don't even tape it up anymore--he prefers it left alone. It was one of those injuries that they probably would have amputated within the first few weeks due to the lack of healing but we persevered since nothing died and started rotting. Who knows, he might even be able to fly when we finally get that humerus dealt with.

Pidgey

[nicole]

That's encouraging, Pidgey. My biggest concern is infection, but it's difficult to tell while she's wrapped up.
I can't tell if she's been eating lately, but her poop hasn't changed, so I'm figuring she is. I'm going to start measuring out her seed, maybe that will give me some indication.
Also, I'm giving her high-calc gravel, mostly because that's what I have. Do you think the calcium will help or hinder her situation?

[Pidgey]

My vet once told me that you don't have to worry too much about them getting the kinds of infections that you're worrying about. They do occasionally get them when their immune systems are shot for some other reason but not a somewhat normal bird--they're pretty doggone tough. If the major blood supply to a limb was destroyed then you'd worry about the outlying tissues dying but you'd probably have seen a lot of blood in the feathers if that'd happened. With the antibiotics, it's not really so much of a worry.

Usually with one of them in this condition, you're more worried about the injury either healing altogether and restoring function, or healing enough that they can live in their new home or aviary for unreleasable birds. I can't see a problem with high-calcium grit unless the antibiotic is a Tetracycline. It's come up before that it's not good with Baytril but that argument's gone both ways. You can give the grit halfway in between giving the antibiotics and it'll help if it matters at all.

Pidgey

[pdpbison]

Originally Posted by nicole

That's encouraging, Pidgey. My biggest concern is infection, but it's difficult to tell while she's wrapped up.
I can't tell if she's been eating lately, but her poop hasn't changed, so I'm figuring she is. I'm going to start measuring out her seed, maybe that will give me some indication.
Also, I'm giving her high-calc gravel, mostly because that's what I have. Do you think the calcium will help or hinder her situation?

Hi Nicole,


I have never seen even one infection resulting from a broken Bone, whether it was sticking out of the skin or not, and many of 'mine' were done over the years when I had no medicines or antibiotics, and, for that matter, I usually do not use them anyway for these kinds of injnurys.

An approximately healthy Pigeon has a completely adequate immune system to manage without strain, what little infection potential as may arise from this kind of injury.

At most, an application of a friendly topical antibiotic of one kind or another ( Neosporin, Nitrofurizone, or whatever ) , at the wound site, is sufficient, and, a sensible prudence to see to...otherwise, there is little need or benifit from systemic Antibiotics which will not address an actual Bone infection anyway, which would be the real 'worry' if one were looking for things to worry about in that regard.





As Pidgey reiterates, the major concern - in this case, respecting the Humerus - is one of aligning the two broken ends of the Humerus correctly and seeing to it that it is stabalized in the correct position, and not constructed for bloodflow to ajoining muscles tendons and nerves, so that the Bone is in a normal position, is straight, and so the ends meet and are being held lightly presing against one another...and then allowing two weeks or so for it to be kept stable, then, for it to be inspected and evaluated.

In an otherwise healthy Bird, if it is not mended in that time, it was not set correctly for the ends to meet and be touching.



Wings wrapped too tight possibly also incur nerve or muscle or tendon damage or other liability from constructed circulation, in addition to bones not being aligned correctly.


Anyway...


Phil
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