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PMV refresher course please? I think I have oneHi all,
Got a call...nice old gal found a sick Pigeon and had had it for four days...anyway, I go get it, and she is telling me she thought it had 'epilepsy' off and on...otherwise, it just stands like a statue... Anyway, I have seen only a few tremors so far, I have him quarenteened. Looks like a last stage juvenile, a big-boy too...wattles are not white yet, or are off color and pasty from having been white if that may be something the illness does, they seem like one has rubbed ashes on normal wattles, slightly dampish maybe...no discharges, eyes bright and clear...vent clear...not a 'fluffy' or 'Artichoke' Bird... Now, if you would, run me through the refresher for PMV? If it is not that, it seems to be something which manifests some similar symptoms...he does not move his wings at all, does not walk but merely stands...he is not emaciated...watery poops with white and brown-green, but the gal had been syringeing him with water quite a bit...she said he would not drink on his own and would not drink if she guided his Beak into water...said when he pecks he tend to reach his head way back after each peck and get into tremors... Vitamines? Rest? Quarenteen? ( with me doing the big time scrub-a-dubb-dubb of my hands of course?) Stands nicely, evenly, but overall simply does not move...completely passive. If you hold him in anything remotely like a normal position he just abides like a Bird Statue, if you tilt him far enough, he wiggles a little...overall reflexes of Tail and so on seem good in axial tilts, head does not respond to having his body moved like it should, just stays in the same position relative to the body...just overall, he does nothing but remain still and 'stare'... Phil Las Vegas Last edited by pdpbison; 14th June 2005 at 02:23 AM. 
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Hi Phil,
The other reasonably common thing which can give some PMV-like symptoms is Paratyphoid, but usually with the twisting round of the neck and 'stargazing'. Assuming for the moment PMV, then fine head trmors are a frequent early sign of the neurological symptoms. I remember Cynthia picking one up and saying "PMV!", and just a barely perceptible tremor was all we could see. But it developed from there. The 'torticollis' (sp?) or neck twisting is the most obvious sign, turning round in circles as if in confusion, falling over, inability to peck at individual food items accurately, picking up seed and tossing it over the shoulder... any and all are symptomatic. Also, of course, showing more signs when approached. No medication for the PMV itself (though severe unresponsive cases may just possibly be helped with prednisone, apparently), just resting in a quiet, fairly dark environment, probably with a soft cloth or towel lining the floor of the cage/box/whatever. Food in deep pots, also water. If unable to get food with quick dives into the pot, then handfeeding necessary also administering of water (though should drink with the old standard hold head and dip beak). Quarantine time would seem to be at least 6 weeks. If he does not soon display any of the more obvious signs, then diagnosis may need rethinking. Cheers John
__________________
John  "Pigeons know more than we think - and think more than we know" ~ John D.
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Hi Phil,
Go into pigeons daily, resources, and click onto the natural healing thread. You will find some natural help using homeopathic remedies, for any kind of central nervouse disorder. A good multi vitamin for pigeons would be Herba pro. I've used it during recovery on birds, and it seems to work well, easily absorbed and has some probiotics in it. It would also be beneficial to give the bird greens, anything you have with extra calcium and minerals in it. Calcium is great for calming and soothing muscles. Brewers yeast, with extra B vitamins, for stress & nerves, because this one will be depleted in any bird with neurological problems. Garlic (now Brand) capsule will help boost the immune system. Treesa
__________________
 Every negative event effects my ability to own my APBT, please be a responsible owner and keep your pitbull out of trouble.
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Hi Phil,
One of my PMV rescues (Blackie) did the "statue" thing, so I would say the combination of symptoms certainly points to PMV. Rest, yes, and water freely available, added electrolytes are helpful. Seed in a deep dish. I tried homeopathic remedies Conium Mac and Hypericum which were effective. Also additional calcium which is becoming my panacea!  Quarantine for at least 6 weeks, I keep mine separate a litttle bit longer. And if you can, keep them for 6 months in case of relapse. Feefo releapsed in February after her recovery the previous September. In the interim I had taken her to the vet who pointed out that despite recovery she had a residual tremor, which I think is significant. None of the others relapsed. My more recent rescues had very mild symptoms and recovered quickly so I released those that I considered releasable after 3 months. I kept one because there was something not quite right about the eyes, but he has been fine. Cynthia
__________________
...while all the time your dear full-throated pigeons will be heard, and the turtledove high in the elm will never bring her cooing to an end. (Virgil)
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Thank you!
I realize too, I have had Birds in the past who likely did have the PMV...lots of twisting and falling down and 'Star Gazing'...had to keep them in 'low' places so if they fell it would not be far. It was a decade ago or so and I had no idea what it was and none of the Vets I kinda knew knew anything much about birds anyway. No losses, but their recovery did take a long time. These Birds also initially were like 'statues' and I found them grounded and just standing there staring off into space on a sidewalk at night. Plump, healthy looking and so on otherwise. They did have a hard time eating but did manage to do so well enough in spite of their frequent spells of palsies and contortions and 'Star Gazing' episodes. I am lucky none of them spread it to any of the others I had at the same time. I did put Brewer's Yeast and powdered 'Purple Dulce' into their Olive Oil moistened Seeds, feeling that these might help whateer-it-was that was bothering them. They could not fly for a long time, but all ( what few, three maybe but were not at the same time) did fly perfectly eventually and regained a normal appearence in all ways. Can you recommend any good sources for the "Herba Pro", "Conium Mac" and "Hyperium"? I will send off for these today if there is time... Thanks! ...sigh... Phil Las Vegas
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Phil,
You may be able to get these things at a Herbal store, or Alternative Therapy type place, Health Food or Homeopathic stores if you have such places anywhere near. I guess all those kinds of 'healthy' places are pretty universal now. John
__________________
John "Pigeons know more than we think - and think more than we know" ~ John D.
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Thanks John,
There are several decent 'Health Food' stores near here, but these items are not familiar to me...so I will go see if they have them. I appreciate it! Phil Las Vegas
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Hi Phil,
What is purple Dulce? Also, tell me about the greens you use for your birds, I use greens mix powder but I want to know the ingredients in yours? Just want to compare.. I can recommend Globals pigeon supplies for the Herba pro, it is possible that Jedds is closer to you, and poprobably has the Herba products. I don't know what the other two products are, as we use the Bellodonna for central nervous disorders. You can probably pick them up at any nutrition store (health food) that carries the homeopathic products. Anything for the nervous system will work without side effects. Do you have a Mothers Market or Whole Foods there? Treesa
__________________
Every negative event effects my ability to own my APBT, please be a responsible owner and keep your pitbull out of trouble.
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Quote:
I am no expert in PMV. But, I am scared to death of it. A local flyer visited a local farmers market, and brought home some birds. Surprise   , he also brought PMV into his loft. He has lost 40 birds so far ! Or 98% of his YB team. The vet told him, it would be of some value to revaccinate every bird in the loft. Even the sick ones. Perhaps the real experts here, could advise if shooting them up with the PMV vaccine would help.I am rethinking my whole health program. Concerning PMV, I am considering going to a twice a year program, instead of once a year. Same with Paratyphoid. I have also come off the "All Natural" bandwagon. I now have a fully stocked shelf of various antibotics.
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Quote:
Hi Warren, While we all use preventive medication and innoculations, which is extremely necessary when birds come in contact with other birds, we do get one or two for rehabbing that have PMV, these aren't our own birds, they are little strangers begging for help, and of course we isolate any stranger or new birds we buy for at least 30 days to 6 weeks. In those situations some of us use the best methods known including the natural remedies as there is no cure for PMV once the bird is diseased. This one takes a while to rehab and defenitely the birds should be isolated. Recovery has been dramatic and positive using the "natural healing." Even wounds, cuts, broken legs, everything heals quicker and better when you up the nutrition. I have found prevention and a good nutrition program pretty much keeps my birds in optimum health. Antibiotics have their place, but too many can ultimately shut down their natural immune system and devistate their intestinal flora in their gut-where their first line of defense is. I use any preventive measure there is, first and foremost, but creating a healthy lifestyle including nutrition is also the key in keeping birds healthy, happy and strong. Let us know how the birds do on the twice a year program, so we can update our prevention files, if you decide the double dosing. If the PMV is that bad out there, double dosing may not be a bad idea. I'm going to ask my avian vet about that, also. Treesa
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Every negative event effects my ability to own my APBT, please be a responsible owner and keep your pitbull out of trouble. Last edited by Skyeking; 14th June 2005 at 04:48 PM.
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I think you can vaccinate them even if they are sick with PMV, but it won't be of much use. You have to be sure though it is PMV what they have and don't vaccinate for anything else when they are sick.
The vaccine is given in order to form antibodies for a specific disease. If they have the disease already, they also have antibodies, so the vaccine won't do anything. If you vaccinate for another disease in a sick bird, then there will not be enough antibodies for the disease you vaccinated for to form, so it will be infeffective. Plus if you vaccinate a live inactivated virus, chances are they will develop the disease you vaccinated for if the bird is sick. Hope I wasn't too confusing. Reti
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Hi Tressa,
The 'Purple Dulce' powder, is something I buy at a little Health Food Store which sells bulk things one meaure out and bags as one likes. I imagine it can come in gel-caps also, or, one could just grind up some dry Sea Weed of the sort Japanese rice Rolls use. I wanted a Sea Weed which contains various trace elements and a little Iodine. My indoor Birds years ago used to devestate the leaves of those planted-in-pots of Sweet Potatoes I tended to find that had sprouted which then I plented in pots around the house, and, well...the House-Pigeons used to eat all the leaves! This got going from my original feral convelescent then permenent came and went of House Bird whose Nest with her mate was on top of my roll top Desk for years ( raied many many gorgeous Babys too! with her almost all white mate) 'Elmo' ( a girl it turned out) who showed the others all sorts of odd things to nibble on... Well, I guessed maybe they were wanting some traces of Iodine or other, so I started to mix in a little of the Purple Dulce into their Olive Oil coated Seeds, and they seemed to like it a lot. Then or around then too, I started off and on to mix in a little powdered Greens or to buy those big bizzare looking 'Kale' and they loved those and would eat the thing in no time. Since then, since those long ago days, I do not have a resident Wise Matriarch Bird to show others to eat a lot of these things, and no one in my Wild Flock will have anything to do with actual Greens or a Kale, so, for my convelescents pr Babys and so on, I tend to use some powders on Olive Oil Seed mixes... If I bring home of of them looking like it grew on the 'Moon' or something 'Kales' they all used to love so much, my Birds since those days are afraid of it! Even if I show them it is 'safe' and that it will not leap on them or grab them like something from the old play-film 'Little Shop of Horrors'...Lol... Oh well...so... The Powdered Greens I have on hand at the moment, are... "Green Kamut" brand, 'Wheat Grass Juice Powder' so called...(Gluten free) I have had others of various kinds also which are blends of various powdered 'Super Greens' of one kind or another...and I have been planning to get some of them again. When I go to the Health Food Store later, I will look at some of the ones I have also had to see their names. I got together the makings for a little hydroponic garden for growing any kind of Wheat Grass or Sprouts, and I will try out my transiently 'in door' Convelescent Birds or youngsters on the little shoots, see if they might wish to try grazing on them a little... I sure miss Elmo...! She was my first (found unconscious in a buisy street with cars drivin over her missing her by inches with their tires...she'd been Dog mauled but recovered wonderfully afte a few months) and was so wise and old and pretty ( a run away 'Nun' maybe, black with white primaries, white head, and a 'tuft' or crest of sorts on the back of her head, long and slender and the fastest flier I ever saw...have some old snapshots somewhere...) Phil Las Vegas Last edited by pdpbison; 14th June 2005 at 05:16 PM.
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Okay...
I went to the Health Food Store, and, Homeopathic-wise, I got... "Hyperium Perforatum" and, "Belladonna"... Now, these being little teeny 'pills'...what do I do with 'em? Do I just pop one of each into the Bird's Beak? Could find no 'Conium Mac' and the clerk who seemed knowledgable had never heard of it. Is there another name perhaps? I spaced the 'Herbal Pro' so maybe I will stop there again tomorrow. I did get some 'bulk' one ounce in a small plastic bag, of "5 Greens" powder, being a blend of Chlorella, Wheat Grass, Barley Grass, Alphalfa, and Parsely... Lastly, the Bird, as the gal said of her experience with him, shows no interest in Water, but, he does appear to have eaten decently of the Seeds in his bowl... So far...otherwise, he seems calm and dreamy... Phil Las Vegas
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Hi Warren,
I am scared of it too! I was not scared of it when I had Birds who likely had it, but I did not know what it was...Lol...so...funny how things can go. Anyway, this fellow is one strong solid Bird and I think an Adult of some maturity. Wattles are not 'white' from the illness merely. he filled his Crop on his own and appears to have drank some water on his own at some point. Crop is full and not over-firm...so... I was watching him eat, and this is what I did see a few times years ago - he pecks, then goes into star-gazing spasms for each Seed pecked, but by golly, he gets 'em down, so, good for him! I am bleaching and scrubbing in a big way...gives me the willies... Weighed him...310 Grammes... Well, mixed him some special Seeds with other goodies in 'em. Wish him well...! Phil Las Vegas
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Hi phil,
Three of the pills of Belladonna twice a day for large birds, 2 for smaller birds.Continue for a few days, then same dose once a day, until symptoms diminish. Pigeons just can't get enough of greens and dirt, they really love to forage and dig for trace minerals and stuff they crave it. I'm glad to see you are trying out the greens and giving your birds access to green vegies and sprouts. Pigeons will eat whatever satisfies them and meets their primary needs. Sometimes the best foods they won't recognize as food, and will just leave it, they can't acquire a taste for it. In those cases the greens powder and brewers yeast, pigeon multi-vitamins,pro-biotics, are a wonderful addition to the formula! I'm syringing homemade kefir (this kefir you can give to 6 month old babies)down Sasha, who had a case of cocci, the need for probiotics is tremendous after 7 days of drugs. It is easy giving it to her, and poops are nice and firm in dolips again! She won't pick this one up on her own! Treesa
__________________
Every negative event effects my ability to own my APBT, please be a responsible owner and keep your pitbull out of trouble.
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