Poopzilla: Pooped Out (In Trouble) or am I Obsessing?

[ryannon]

Shi, I always thought that wattles were something one found on turkeys - and certain usually rather unsympathetic individuals.

In answer to your questions, Poopzilla is getting a well-balanced assortment of various seeds and grains (packaged, for doves and pigeons) plus a few vegetables like lettuce and endives, plus the occasional treats like bits of gouda cheese or small fragments of peanuts that he likes me to feed him by hand when we're into snuggling mode... sigh....

(Why aren't there any 'heart' smilies in the selection?)

Oh yes, as for 'age' (I presume you mean P'zilla and not me or the stuff he eats - which is fresh): he's a little over a year old - I'd estimate fourteen months tops....

Originally Posted by mr squeaks

Hi Ry/Jon...

The part of Poopzilla's anatomy to which you are referring is called a "wattle."

However, there is some discrepancy, since some refer to that portion as a "cere."

I did too, UNTIL Cindy (AZWhitefeather) and I went to our State Fair and met a pigeon judge. He called that part a "wattle." Hence, my preference. Anyway, most will know what area to which you are referring.

Sounds like you are getting some great advice!! I just hope you can get the MEDS this situation may need!!

Wishing you both Hugs and Scritches

Shi

P.S. WHAT ARE you feeding Poopzilla? Any idea of age??

[Margarret]

Originally Posted by mr squeaks

Hi Ry/Jon...

The part of Poopzilla's anatomy to which you are referring is called a "wattle."

However, there is some discrepancy, since some refer to that portion as a "cere."

I did too, UNTIL Cindy (AZWhitefeather) and I went to our State Fair and met a pigeon judge. He called that part a "wattle." Hence, my preference. Anyway, most will know what area to which you are referring.

Shi

Hi Shi,

You are right. I think a wattle is correct too. I called it a cere as that is what the Australian vet book called it when describing sinus infections. The cere is the featherless area around the eye as far as I know. And perhaps some people use the terms interchangeably? Back to the anatomy books for me.

Margaret

[mr squeaks]

There is some confusion of terms. I, too, thought the same as you did.

Supposedly, the Cere is the area around the eye. Then again, I always thought it was the wattle, once the judge called the "cere" a wattle! Confused yet??? Yeah, me too...oh well, to keep things in perspective, I can just say "that fleshy part at the top of the beak!" There! Hopefully, that will take care of descriptions...*sigh*

Then, of course, then there are "homing," "feral," and ALL KINDS of fancy birds: all called PIGEONS!

Oh well, I THINK I know what the wing is? The beak? The toes? Eyes? Feathers or lack thereof?

OK, enough frivolity...back to the Poops and his health! Once they have settled in your heart, you want to do all you can to keep them happy and healthy (they are already wise!).

And, we don't want his fans to worry!!

Wishing all the best!!

Shi

Thanks, Margaret! I didn't see your post until AFTER I posted! Yes, the terms sure do seem to be used interchangeably!

[pdpbison]

Hi ryannon,





What do the Poops and Urates look like?


Colors, consistancys, number-in-a-day, size..?


And, is his appetite being effected?


Lastly, either way, how does his Crop seem?


Does it seem to be full? Partly full? Sluggish? Squishy? Sodden? Or..?


His Nares really ought to have been definitely vibrant 'White' once reaching adulthood and since...so, possibly, something has been amiss for quite a while...even if not seeming to be effecting him in demeanor or energy.




Phil
l v

[jenfer]

Originally Posted by mr squeaks

Supposedly, the Cere is the area around the eye. Then again, I always thought it was the wattle, once the judge called the "cere" a wattle! Confused yet??? Yeah, me too...oh well, to keep things in perspective, I can just say "that fleshy part at the top of the beak!" There! Hopefully, that will take care of descriptions...*sigh*

According to the Cornell bird people, that fleshy part is the cere (which is what I've always known it as also):

http://www.birds.cornell.edu/pigeonw...-about-pigeons

Jennifer

[myrpalom]

Originally Posted by ryannon

Ah, Margarret!

first thing is to find the French equivalent of doxycycline (unless that is the generic name for the molecule) and then to obtain it - which once again, should be do-able even here.

..

Hello Jonathan
We have Doxycycline in Belgium (Ornicure from Oropharma, especially for pigeons).
I'll send you some on Monday, if I can find it at the pharmacy, last time I went there, they ran out of it, not sure if it is available again.
Myriam

[ryannon]

Hi Phil, and thanks for replying...

It's way late here, and Poopzilla is the only one sleeping; as for me, I can't see straight enough to give you the answers to the questions you've asked - other than to say that everything seems 'normal' with him except for the noticeable slowing down, the sleeping and some odd head movements (backwards, sort of what you might see with mild PMV symptoms...

More tomorrow when it's light and I can look at things a little more closely...

Thanks again for your help

Originally Posted by pdpbison

Hi ryannon,


What do the Poops and Urates look like?


Colors, consistancys, number-in-a-day, size..?


And, is his appetite being effected?


Lastly, either way, how does his Crop seem?


Does it seem to be full? Partly full? Sluggish? Squishy? Sodden? Or..?


His Nares really ought to have been definitely vibrant 'White' once reaching adulthood and since...so, possibly, something has been amiss for quite a while...even if not seeming to be effecting him in demeanor or energy.




Phil
l v

[pdpbison]

Hi ryyannon,



Okeydoke...


Anyway, do this -


1) Look at all recent poops/urates and let us know the details of your observations on that.


2) Spigot him in a loose 'Burrito' as you sit, so he is held vertically behind your knees, with your legs gripping his Tail and the extra cloth around it...and...open his Beak wide, under a good light, and have a good look at his Tracheal opening, noting it's color and if it seems damp or 'milky' looking or whatever else you can see about it, and about things generally in his Troat...color of Throat and so on...

...does his Tracheal opening close and open as he breathes? Does it stay open or stay widely open, and not close between breaths?




Till next...

Best wishes you two..!



Phil
l v

[Dezirrae]

Oh I do hope Poopzilla is feeling much better & perky again soon! I'll be pulling for him. Hang in there Jon and of course continue to keep us posted.

[ryannon]

Hello Everyone!

Here's the Poopzilla Progress Report:

After having shaken, rattled and rolled the P'zilla in all directions, opened his beak and peered down his throat, palped his crop (A-ok), listened to his breathing and examined his poops in great detail, I've come to the conclusion that all appears normal. His eyes (when he's not dozing) look fine as well: bright, as beady with potential mischief as ever, and no secretions.

His poops are of good size, as frequent as usual, the consistency of toothpaste and more or less of a dark green-to-olive color with an admixture of pure white. The dark-greenish hue may be due to the fact that he's been eating quite a bit of green lentils and split peas along with his regular mixture of seeds and grains.

There is no sneezing or gasping for breath, and his PMV-type head movements seem to have calmed down. As for the color of his upper beak, on a Pepsodent scale of one to ten (pure white), I'd give him five or six: it's less grey than off white, and has been that way from the very beginning.

I do confess to not having examined the movement of his tracheal opening in the way that Phil suggested (I didn't want to upset him so soon after waking this afternoon), but I will do this when I feel he won't be overly upset by such an unusual procedure.

We both slept (next to each other) until around two in the afternoon, after which I left to hunt down some vitamins and whatever else I could find to reinforce his system. Upon returning several hours later, he seems lively and playful. I'll have to see how the rest of the late afternoon and evening plays out.

After considering all of the advice and help which has been so graciously offered by you, I've come to this conclusion: rather than filling him up with antibiotics - which I avoid taking myself - I'm going to keep him under close observation and have his poop analized for viral, bacterial and parasitical infection.

In the meantime, he'll be receiving doses of a liquid multi-vitamin solution: Topvit, which is made in Belgium and contains all the B-complex elements, plus A, E, C, D3, Panthanol, Folic Acid, and Biotin. For the minerals, I bought a compact block containing Calcium, Sodium, Magnesium, Iron, Copper and Sulphur on a grit-like rectangle of crushed oyster shells that (theoretically) he'll peck on at will.

Presently, and after his initial 'hello' he's back at the end of the bed with his eyes closed, head a bit down and snoozing on his feet: this is the part that continues to worry me, but as I said above, I hesitate starting him on antibiotics until I can get his poop analyzed.

Please feel free to let me know what you think of this approach, and to query me on anything else pertaining to the situation and the treatment.

If I see a worsening of his condition, I will start a treatment of Doxycycline that several of you have suggested. Myriam has also very kindly done some calling around from Belgium to France and come up with a list of what appear to be competent vets I can consult in an emergency.

In the meantime, I'm going to watch and wait - and set about acquiring the basic medicinal necessities in the event that they should be needed: Teresa kindly sent me a list of recommended products.

And that's about all the news that fits: I still don't understand why Poopzilla is acting so pooped-out, but perhaps the analysis of his droppings will reveal the underlying causes.

Thank you all for your concern; I'll give an update when there's something new to report.

In the meantime, I'd appreciate your opinion of not starting him on the antibiotics: it's kind of my gut feeling, but I could be way wrong about this and if you feel I am, don't hesitate to let me know. Only a fool never changes his mind.

My best wishes to all of you,

Worried Jonathan & Pooped-Out Poopzilla

Originally Posted by pdpbison

Hi ryyannon,



Okeydoke...


Anyway, do this -


1) Look at all recent poops/urates and let us know the details of your observations on that.


2) Spigot him in a loose 'Burrito' as you sit, so he is held vertically behind your knees, with your legs gripping his Tail and the extra cloth around it...and...open his Beak wide, under a good light, and have a good look at his Tracheal opening, noting it's color and if it seems damp or 'milky' looking or whatever else you can see about it, and about things generally in his Troat...color of Throat and so on...

...does his Tracheal opening close and open as he breathes? Does it stay open or stay widely open, and not close between breaths?




Till next...

Best wishes you two..!



Phil
l v

[Jay3]

I think having his poop analyzed would be a good idea.

[Trees Gray]

Thank you for the update. I think having the poop analyzed is the best idea, and then you can find out IF there is anything going on. Nutrition will always help, it never hurts.

[pdpbison]

Hi ryannon,




Sounds good...


Might be a Virus effecting his Liver and whatever else...


There are who-knows how many various mild Viruses they can get, which pass, but which might slow them down for a while...so, yes, nice Vitamin-Mineral suppiments sound good in any event.


There are no fecal or other 'tests' to determine if a Virus is present, or, not unless one is the favorite niece or nephew of the CEO of some major Medical Lab anyway...


And even then, all Species have many Viruses as benign background symbiotes anyway, and telling one from another is serious 'Science' and costs big-time Dollars.


I was sort of thinking the 'P-Z' might be having a Yeast issue, for which, the famous "AVC-Water" would be an easy address to do and would be good anyway, regardless...so, you could consider to do that for say two weeks, and see what it does...


'Lentils' and 'Peas' will make for medium-green 'Pea Soup' colored poops...but brighter or 'acid' color 'greens' tend to suggest 'Bile' and hence Liver issues of some sort...or possibly digestive system infections or bothers the Liver is trying to iron out in it's way, if not being directly effected itself.


Possibly also, PPMV survivors can relapse later in Life...and this could make for some period of not appearing to be at their best for a while.


Or, PPMV survivors may have some vulnerabilities to some bacteria or incidental Viruses which would not bother a non PPMV survivor in the same way, just as a potential of their legacy.


Anyhow...just those thoughts...and, the ACV-Water would of course do no harm, so, it is something to consider, and it may help...


For his situation, if you were interested to try it, I would mix it say, to the tune of four Tablespoons of raw ACV to a Gallon of Water...and if he does not like it or refuses it ( not likely, ) then, try 'three' instead...



Best wishes..!


Phil
l v

[Margarret]

Ryannon,

I think the conservative approach of watching and waiting is a good one. In the absence of definite signs, it won't hurt.

The vitamin mineral supplements sound excellent as does the pick stone. My birds love those pick stones.

A poop analysis is a good idea. There will be some bacteria such as e coli present and some others normal to pigeon innards, but it is the number of them that is important in a fecal exam. And of course those that should not be there if they should happen to show up.

I'm glad you got some referrals from Myriam. Those will be good to have on hand.

I think Phil's recommendation of some ACV water is a good one.

I'll continue to watch for updates on little P'zilla.

Margaret

[ryannon]

Margarret et.al.

Yes, a whole therapeutic approach has been suggested, and it seems the best way to go in the absence of more definite symptoms.

I'm also thinking that the interpretation of the fecal analysis ought to be done by a vet.

Earlier this evening I took a nap and Poopzilla - who often naps with me, did something he's never done before: as I was on my back, he very gently lay down between my upper chest and left shoulder so that his head was just a few inches from mine and even more quietly than usual, made the very soft, low noises that he reserves for special moments of pleasure/satisfaction (i.e., when I caress his head - which I was not doing at this moment.) This went on for quite a while and progressively, I began to perceive an almost palpable form of intimate and particularly reassuring communication coming from him: it was as if he was telling me not to worry in a very special way. On the edge of sleep myself, I began to feel the tension and worry flow out of me as his own presence filled my consciousness. The 'distance' between us had never been less, while at the same time, I felt even closer to myself in terms of unity and an enlarged awareness of both of us.

I know the whole description can easily be interpretated as wishful, romanticized thinking and anthropomorphic projection, but the basic facts remain: his unusual position and proximity; the modification of the sounds he was making - which have always been reserved for a very different context; and even the length of time he remained like that; although the whole experience seemed to take place outside of time, it was I who ultimately felt the need to change positions and break the 'spell.'

Once again, this experience makes me believe that these birds - and 'animals' in general - are so much closer to us than we either imagine or perceive. In reality, the real mechanisms of 'projection' consist in our habitually superficial ways of seeing and relating to them - the filters we use to distance ourselves from their feelings (and in consequence, ours as well). It's understandable, since we normally 'just don't have the time' or the opportunity to reduce the space separating us from them: I suppose it's something we learn in dealing with one another and members of our own species in general. For many reasons (and most of them bad, I suspect) only a certain level of 'closeness' is tolerated, no matter who we're dealing with or whatever our relationship.

Perhaps certain mothers or nurses who've had the experience of relating to newborn and/or very young babies will recognize what I'm talking about here - and perhaps the ability and need to have experiences like these are part of what drive women to become mothers or nurses in the first place

Whatever: I'm a guy, so after all, this is pure conjecture.

But what I do know is that it's nearly six in the morning here and time to close this post despite the fact that it could go on for quite a bit more....

Peace and best wishes to all....