Poopzilla: Pooped Out (In Trouble) or am I Obsessing?

[ryannon]

Hello Everyone,

I don't know if you remember us (ryannon, the guy) and Poopzilla (the pigeon) but I'm posting this because Poopzilla has been acting as if something's not quite right, health-wise.

Succinctly, he seems 'pooped out', meaning that he's lost his usual vivacity, sleeps much more than usual, and when awake, occasionally cranes his head and neck back in slow PMV-type movements (which he had as a baby a year ago and eventually surmounted). From time to time, he scratches his head with one or another of his feet - more than 'normally' it seems to me. The 'white' part of his upper beak (I've forgotten the exact term), which was always a bit grey, seems to have darkened a bit. His poops do seem normal, as does his respiration. A sneeze from time to time, but I'd say no more than usual. Other than that, it's his listlessness and 'slow motion' mode that's worrying me: he seems groggy most of the time, whereas normally, he's all over the place, following me around, poking his beak into everything and generally bouncing around like the happy little Poopzilla he is.

I've looked at the various possibilities, viral, bacterial and parasitical, and I confess that I have no idea where to start in terms of treatment. There seem to be too many possibilities corresponding to his symptoms. I should add that he's not molting and looks in fine shape, superficially speaking. The only way - but it's a distinct possibility - that he could have picked up a virus, bacterium or whatever, would be from the two ferals who spend the night on my windowsill: the window is always cracked open and Poopzilla often elects to spend part or all of the night next to it.

Needless to say, I'm very worried about this: there seems to be something going on, and I don't have any idea of what it is. As far as vets and/or rehabbers, pigeons are a pretty low-priority item here in France.

Given his symptoms - which come and go: after watching me type this on the computer screen, he has jumped onto the bed and is presently pecking my toes - which also worries me, since he usually takes a particular delight in biting them. Ouch! Now he is biting them! - is that there are so many possibilities and so many potential treatments, and perhaps nothing that's either available in France or even translatable if it does exist here.

Anyway, fire away at will and let me know what you think or even better, what I can do - even if it's to stop worrying and rejoice in the fact that he's apparently healthy enough to give my toes a a thorough working-over.

At this point, I just don't know what to think


.

[Pidgey]

Just out of curiosity, do you ever get him outside in real sunlight?

Pidgey

[ryannon]

Yes, quite often (four to six days a week) and sometimes for more than several hours - or until either he or I seems to have had enough (he has his ways of letting me know).

So he has been getting his dose of UVs - as have I - on the terrace of the corner café downstairs (where's he become a local attraction and unofficial Ambassador of Pigeondom) or in the garden in back of my building.

Because of the PMV, he can't really fly - and shouldn't even be left to try outside - and the time in the sun is spent in a small cage which fits nicely on part of a outdoor café table....

[Pidgey]

Can you take a pretty-high resolution picture of him and post it?

Pidgey

[mr squeaks]

HI Ry/Jon!! While I am delighted to see you posting, I am very sad about the circumstances!! Poopzilla is one of my favorities and I sure hope there is nothing serious wrong with him.

I know our members will do their best to help. I see Pidgey (a.k.a. Guardian of Broken Pigeons) has already posted.

My question: would any of the Vets be willing to examine a poop sample using the various techniques that are available. Pidgey would know the terms used. Unfortunately, I forget... Hopefully, you could eliminate a few things...

Please keep us updated!

Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi

[ryannon]

Hello Shi, nice to 'see' you again!

I'm sure that the sort of analyses you're thinking of can be done here; the trick is finding who or where. But this is not impossible: there is a national veterinary school that I could call; I would presume that they could direct me to a laboratory that does this type of work.

Unfortunately, it's often hard 'getting through' to the French - even if one is perfectly bilingual: they're just not programmed to think outside the box - and pigeons are something which are definitely outside the box for the majority of them - be they vets or no.

But that's neither here nor there: you're absolutely right: it's time to get on the blower (tomorrow, since it's already night here) and start calling around....

Thanks for the (very good) suggestion!

[Margarret]

Jonathan,

I just now logged on and saw your post. I would start by suspecting an upper respiratory infection. You say he is sneezing now and again and his cere has darkened. These are classic symptoms of a respiratory infection. The most common cause according to Walker's book The Flying Vet is Chlamydia. Stress can provoke an outbreak of this bug that is pretty much present in most pigeons.
I would treat for this first before going to anything more. The treatment is doxycycline for three to five days. It will also be effective against mycoplasma, the second most common cause of respiratory infections in pigeons.

Lets see what others may say.

Margaret

[ryannon]

Originally Posted by Pidgey

Can you take a pretty-high resolution picture of him and post it?

Pidgey

I'd love to, but this would be from difficult to impossible without even so much as a low-resolution camera...

Thank you for your suggestion - I'm not being facetious here - it's just that I don't possess a camera of any sort - and at the moment I don't know where I might beg, borrow or even steal one.

Out of curiosity, what might you be looking for in such a pic? As I say, he looks good (well-fed; feathers not puffed up, etc.) - but seems to lack vitality. The only possible visible marker might be the rather greyish (rather than quite white) portion of the upper beak, but that's always been more or less the hue. Whether or not it has darkened a bit is not certain: when one is worried, everything looks like a potential symptom - but as I say, it's always looked more or less as it does now.

Once again, thank you for your input - and feel free to query anything else I might be able to answer concerning him...

[Pidgey]

Sometimes their beaks look something like you describe because they're hens and sometimes it's a sign of illness, for sure. I don't remember enough of Poopzilla's story to guess whether worms might be a possibility. If I were just shooting blind, I'd probably give the bird a course of medications for the majors and then make sure its nutrition program was excellent for awhile. Not living in France, I don't know how tough it'd be to acquire medications and that sort of thing.

Pidgey

[mr squeaks]

Hi Ry/Jon...

The part of Poopzilla's anatomy to which you are referring is called a "wattle."

However, there is some discrepancy, since some refer to that portion as a "cere."

I did too, UNTIL Cindy (AZWhitefeather) and I went to our State Fair and met a pigeon judge. He called that part a "wattle." Hence, my preference. Anyway, most will know what area to which you are referring.

Sounds like you are getting some great advice!! I just hope you can get the MEDS this situation may need!!

Wishing you both Hugs and Scritches

Shi

P.S. WHAT ARE you feeding Poopzilla? Any idea of age??

[ryannon]

Ah, Margarret!

Thank you for your input: first thing is to find the French equivalent of doxycycline (unless that is the generic name for the molecule) and then to obtain it - which once again, should be do-able even here.

Can you explain how it is administered, and in what sort of doses? Is it a 'human' type antibiotic? Is it an antibiotic? Is there any risk involved in using it? Am I asking too many questions?

Thank you for your concern, Margarret - there are times (and this is certainly one of them) that I wish we didn't live seven or so thousand miles distant from each other...

Originally Posted by Margarret

Jonathan,

I just now logged on and saw your post. I would start by suspecting an upper respiratory infection. You say he is sneezing now and again and his cere has darkened. These are classic symptoms of a respiratory infection. The most common cause according to Walker's book The Flying Vet is Chlamydia. Stress can provoke an outbreak of this bug that is pretty much present in most pigeons.
I would treat for this first before going to anything more. The treatment is doxycycline for three to five days. It will also be effective against mycoplasma, the second most common cause of respiratory infections in pigeons.

Lets see what others may say.

Margaret

[Pidgey]

Doxycycline is one of the Tetracycline group and that isn't a trade name. I think one of the most common longstanding trade names was "Vibramycin". Anyhow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxycycline

Pidgey

[ryannon]

Hi again - the Poopzilla story is quite simple: I found him at the end of last June (a year ago) huddled next to a building like the little lost fledgeling that he was. Hand-fed him for several weeks and saw the onset of the PMV symptoms. It took him several months to shake them off. He developed normally and once the PMV had ceased, he never really displayed any symptoms of anything up until a few days ago.

As for acquiring anything other than severe migraines in France, 30-odd years of experience have taught me not to be wildly optimistic. With enough time, determination and patience, however, most things can be seen through to completion - if one is either very lucky or in total Olympic form.

But perhaps I'm being too pessimistic here.

Tomorrow's another day (in just two hours, Paris time, in fact) and I'll see what can be done....

Originally Posted by Pidgey

Sometimes their beaks look something like you describe because they're hens and sometimes it's a sign of illness, for sure. I don't remember enough of Poopzilla's story to guess whether worms might be a possibility. If I were just shooting blind, I'd probably give the bird a course of medications for the majors and then make sure its nutrition program was excellent for awhile. Not living in France, I don't know how tough it'd be to acquire medications and that sort of thing.

Pidgey

[Margarret]

Doxycycline is one of the tetracyclines but has a longer half life in the tissue. this is the generic name of the stuff. Per David Marx, A Veterinary Approach to Pigeon Health, the dose is 10-50 mg. per day. He is probably a fairly small bird, being a feral, and so I would go with about 20 mg. to start and see how he tolerates it. You have to withhold calcium sources (grit) when giving this med.

Some of the names of the product are:
Bird-Biotictm (Thomas Labs)
Doxybird (Medpet)
Pigeon Doxyvet-P (Vetafarm)

If you can't find any Doxycycline, then go to the Tetracyclines. See what you can find in the morning at a pet store. They use this stuff for all kinds of pet birds. Parrots get upper respiratory infections too. We will figure out the dosage when you see what product you can obtain. Keep him warm and out of drafts. No window watching tonight. I'm just making a guess based on the symptoms you describe and what I have read, but I think he probably has some infected sinuses. The drainage causes the cere to darken because it drains from the sinus down past the cere to the slit in the roof of his mouth, staining the cere on it's way.

Margaret

[ryannon]

Thank you for that detailed and succinct response, Margarret - and everyone else who has offered suggestions and input.

I will try to obtain the doxycycline tomorrow - as well as some vitamins or whatever else might do some good for P'zilla.

For now, windows closed, a no-draft environment and an eagle-eye for any emerging symptoms - or improvements.

I'll keep you all posted as to the progress, and thank you all again....


Addendum: yes, doxycycline does exist here: I just Googled it in French. Apparently for human consumption, but I'll pursue the matter further tomorrow (visions of ryannon holding up the local pharmacy at gun-point in order to obtain doxycycline without the all-important prescription: "Stand back you fools - it's not for me but for Poopzilla the Pigeon!)

Originally Posted by Margarret

Doxycycline is one of the tetracyclines but has a longer half life in the tissue. this is the generic name of the stuff. Per David Marx, A Veterinary Approach to Pigeon Health, the dose is 10-50 mg. per day. He is probably a fairly small bird, being a feral, and so I would go with about 20 mg. to start and see how he tolerates it. You have to withhold calcium sources (grit) when giving this med.

Some of the names of the product are:
Bird-Biotictm (Thomas Labs)
Doxybird (Medpet)
Pigeon Doxyvet-P (Vetafarm)

If you can't find any Doxycycline, then go to the Tetracyclines. See what you can find in the morning at a pet store. They use this stuff for all kinds of pet birds. Parrots get upper respiratory infections too. We will figure out the dosage when you see what product you can obtain. Keep him warm and out of drafts. No window watching tonight. I'm just making a guess based on the symptoms you describe and what I have read, but I think he probably has some infected sinuses. The drainage causes the cere to darken because it drains from the sinus down past the cere to the slit in the roof of his mouth, staining the cere on it's way.

Margaret