Possibly sick parent-fed baby dove

[Vasp]

Well, that friend who gave me the ringneck dove? Her other pair of doves, who have been taking good care of their single baby since Tuesday now, have a baby that seems sort of ill. She called me up because he was breathing rapidly and I came over and noticed a few things. The baby, in size, is doing very well. The little guy has his eyes opened and pin feathers sprouting out and everything, and a huge crop. The only this is this:

a) The baby's legs seem to be a bit splayed out on either side of it
b) The baby has a rapid sort of "ripple effect" when it breathes, meaning its lungs don't just expand in and out, but sort of ripple in very quick breaths.
c) The baby's eyes, when they should be well opened by now, are squinted.
d) The baby's poops are very liquidy and its stomach and cloaca are coated in white liquid.
e) The baby sometimes shivers like it's cold, but it feels very warm to the touch.

What should I do? Should I take it away from its parents and observe how its crop empties, how it behaves, etc...? Or would it be more wise to just let the parents take care of it? They are not young parents and have raised quite a few babies before.

'Tis the season to be dovey, it would seem, with all these doves that keep creeping into my life...

[pdpbison]

Hi Vasp,



Could he be too 'hot'..?


If not that...are there any sounds of his Breathing? Any raspyness or clicking or anything?


He might have aspirated a small Seed, or, some Liquid...which would be very serious of course, if he did...


Otherwise...oye...uhhhhhhhhhh...various Viruses can effect their System for them to be processing lots of Water and making liquidy urates, liquidy poos, and feeling feverish or 'panting'...but then too, so can other bacterial illnesses, also...

How old is he?


Phil
l v

[Vasp]

The little guy is just five days old. From what I've observed, all the babies I've ever raised, all parrots, pigeons, doves and songbirds were born with a clicky noise when they breathe, it fades over time and then goes away completely when they're adults and doesn't harm them at all, so I wouldn't be able to tell if it was just baby clicking or...bad clicking. I was around right after he was born and he also had the clicking noise from birth. Same as the baby I'm raising now. Same as all the babies I've ever raised and observed, parent-fed or not. He may be too warm, but it's not very warm where he is, and his parents are just sitting on him like they should be.

When I see his poops, I see that they are very white and liquidy and messy, whereas the baby I'm raising has rather clean poops, whatever surrounding a pretty solid piece of nice brown poop.

Should I separate him, or just wait...?

[pdpbison]

Hi Vasp,



Well...it DOES sound like somehting is not-right there, definitely...with the messy Urates, messy poops...


Can you double check whatever the parents have been eating?

And or whatever other factors that might have to do with maybe some sort of germs or Mice or whatever, which might be getting into the feed or other things the parents might be nibbleing on?


I think if it was me, I would not seperate him from his parents...but I would be brooding on what to treat the parents for, say, in a Drinking Water way, so he would get the treatmens from their feeding and watering him...


Trouble is of course, "what" is it that is bothering the little one? What should one treat for...which is coming through the parents which is not bothering them enough to show?


He is awefully little..!


What are the parents poos and urates looking like?


Phil
l v

[Vasp]

The parents poops... Well, from experience with these birds, they always get extremely stinky when they're raising youngsters. I'll have to double check, but from what I've seen, they look normal. The parents are acting fine, by the way, but I'll have to go over and check what it is they're eating... I do recall that she was feeding her pigeons a diet intended for poultry, as she gets it from a feed store, but from what I recall, all it did was improve the condition of her doves and their poops.

Could this be a problem for the babies, though? Would it be wiser to switch them to seeds? I'm not sure if they're on the pellets or seeds, but I think I saw a seed in the baby's crop upon investigation.

[MaryOfExeter]

Just for future reference, it's always good to give the parents probiotics in their water when they're raising. It lets them get the most out of their feed in such stressfull times. It also helps prevent E. coli and salmonela in the babies/parents


I'm still trying to figure out what could be causing the poor little baby this problem.

One thing you could do is get a dropping test done?

[Vasp]

I have some human probiotics on hand. Let me think, what is it called again... Well, I forget, but it comes in a capsule and dissolves in water. Moody takes it because she has bad poops, likely due to lack of good bacteria in her system. Should I add this to their water?

[MaryOfExeter]

I'm not sure if you should. Depending on what's wrong with the baby, it may make it better or worse.

I'm thinking that your bird has E. Coli maybe. I'm not an expert by far. The bad smell...the increased urates/watery droppings....they could be symptoms of E. coli....Also, E. coli can cause abdominal pain, which could explain the position of the legs (even though the baby probably just has splay leg), shaking, and panting. Panting and having the eyes closed normally comes with sick birds anyways. In the case of e. coli, then I'd say go for it and give them probiotics, as they can get rid of it. On the other hand...I could be wrong...and the good bacteria could only be feeding the bad bacteria of whatever is causing this.

[Vasp]

I cleaned off the baby's stomach with some warm water. His skin looks dry. He keeps his eyes closed now, even if he can open them fine. He doesn't seem too responsive either, and shakes whenever he tries to crawl. Unable to move very well, too... What could be the cause? I'm still unsure whether to add probiotics or not.

[pdpbison]

Hi Vasp,


I am leaning to Mary of Exeter's suspicion of "e-coli" as a possible culprit...


Of course one does not wish to medicate such very young infant Birds unless one really feels one must...but...it does sound as if somehting is amiss with the little one's health, and of course the parents could be transmitting an ilness while remaining asymptomatic themselves...


So, it might be worth considering to treat the sol Drinking Water which the parents drink, so it contains a medicine for answering an 'e-coli' illness...so they and the Babys and anyone else drinking from it, would be getting treated.


Otherwise, there is not much to go on here as for making any diagnosis of the problem, other than that some of my tentative suspicion, and then Mary's mention, would seem reasonable, and would fit what is being seen...


Babys can perish rather fast of course...so, if you have the meds for trating e-coli, and if you feel this is a reasonable hypothesis...then you had best get on to it and start the treatment now.


Good luck with this..!


Many meds which are for e-coli also do various of salmonella I think...so, nothing wrong with that...as their appearances can be similar sometimes, depending on the strains...


Phil
l v

[pdpbison]

...if it was me, I would carefully evaluate the feed the parents have been getting...and if any even hint of a doubt obout it, then toss it, and instead, just allow them regular Dove kinds of Seeds which should be just fine for them anyway...


And if I were treating an infant, via treating the Parents, for suspected e-coli or salmonella, I would tend to withold pro-biotics, unless I was mixing the parent's drinking Water for it to have a just barely sub-therapudic amount of ACV, in order to hedge against the pro-biotics themselves assuming a unintended virulance in the presence of Antibiotics reducing those flora or fauna which keep THEM in check...but then this also reduces various of the pro-biotics themselves who can not abide an acidic environ...so...

If the parents were healthy, the natural pro-biotics of their Crops would be all the Baby should need...so...with that in mind, I myself would not tend to include them for the Baby...

If hand raising a Baby, then I would lean more toward their use...



Phil
l v

[Vasp]

What sort of medication would we need for the treatment of e-coli and salmonella? I can pick some up--however, I'm not very keen on the idea of medicating such a wee one. It does seem that something is amiss with this little one, and something should be done about it.

[pdpbison]

Hi Vasp,


Certainly there are quite a few which can be used...


Have a peek here for some general info in Articles specifically respecting Pigeons since Doves would be the same, remembering that Dosage should be based on the weight of the patient(s), and in your case, a Water Borne Medication in the drinking Water would treat the Babys via the parents, which is much better than trying to treat the Baby himself -

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...ns&btnG=Search

I personally would never use "Gentamycin" or any of it's kin for any Bird or anyone else, since it has a nasty habit of destroying inner Ear functons making for balance and co-ordination problems for ever after...


"Enrofloxyn" is probably a decent choice...

"Divet", trade mane for a combination of Sulfadiazynum and Trimethoprimium should also be a decent choice...

Some of the Tetra or other 'cycline' family similarly...

Amoxicillin is good...maybe among the better, if memory serve...

Anyway, scan through some of the 'google' listings via the above link...see what you think...


Good luck..!


Phil
l v

[MaryOfExeter]

The thing here is, probiotics won't 'hurt' the immune system the baby is building up, but can actually cure e.coli. E. coli and Salmonella tend to come in when the bird is low on those natural bacteria, normally after using antibiotics or during stress (which can occur during breeding). Using probiotics in the parents water will allow them to get it and fight their e. coli if they have it, as well stay in the system to where the baby can get its share of the boost of good bacteria to help with its e. coli problem. Medicine will help yes, but it can have an effect on the little one's immune system..which is why you really shouldn't use any medications during breeding unless it is ACV, probios, or wormers/parasite medications if you must. Really nothing should be used unless you have to during breeding, except the probios which is actually recommended to use regularly during this time to get the biggest, healthiest babies you can.

Normally in this situation...if I were going to use any type of antibiotic, I'd try to use a bit of ACV first, then probiotics as soon as I can as a follow-up. I try to keep the immune system in mind when medicating birds with young or the young themselves....It's kind of a difficult situation really. You just have to do what you think you should, and hope for the best. After all, they're little weak squabs, and the chance of them surviving at this point isn't the highest.

[MaryOfExeter]

Re-thinking about the matter, and doing a little more studying on it, I've sort of came to like the idea of using antibiotics more in this case. But I am almost certain I read somewhere that ACV kills things like salmonella and e. coli...so...I still hold to my thoughts that it would be safer for the babies, until I read somewhere that it doesn't actually help at all against salmonella type things.


"Consider using anitibiotics only if the birds are sick or the birds' droppings are poor and the above measurments have not helped. Anitbiotics should always be used with care, no matter what time of year. The antibiotics that kill E. coli also kill many of the normal bacteria in the bowel, which are necessary for nutrient absorption and vitamin production. If antibiotics are used during moulting, they can comprimise feather quality. Incorrect use during breeding can adversely effect youngsters' developement."

The 'above measurements' it mentioned were mainly for the race season. Some of the things that could relate in this case are:
"If E. coli is a frequent finding, review loft-based stresses, loft design, ventilation and management practices. The loft may be too crowded, the birds may be chronically overworked, or feed quality may be poor."
"Always start the birds on probiotics. The E. coli might go away by itself but it is best to take no chance."

Warm and moist places are breeding grounds for bacteria like E. coli. I'd clean the water containers very good with either bleach or white vinegar with cold water instead of the hot/warm water people would think to use to clean things. Also try to keep their area as dry and clean as you can...maybe cleaning out the nest bowl/box and putting some new bedding in? Even little things like that can help a lot with fighting sicknesses like this.


Well one good thing can come out of this - I will probably be an E. coli expert by the time this is over! I keep re-reading and re-reading this stuff