Problem with broken leg pijjie, need help ASAP!

[xxmoxiexx]

Ok, i feel like a real moron right now! I feel really, really bad. The broken leg pijjie, posted another thread about him a few weeks ago, i splinted the leg and have been waiting for it to heal. I changed the splint on thursday morning last time, and the leg still felt loose, but i havent really wiggled it in fear of breaking it if it had started to heal. I was gone last night, and i had started to tube feed about a week ago because he was getting thin, and a rehabber told me with BB that sometimes they wont eat when you put splints on, anything foreign on, because they will kind of throw a fit like, and go on a hunger strike. So i dont know if he started eating again, looks like mostly he makes a mess, MAYBE some of it went down his throat, who knows, so kept up the tube feeding just in case.
Last night his foot seemed dark in a few spots, not dark, but darker, so i lossened up the splint by cutting it in a few spots, had to go to work, so got back today and those spots that were just a little darker are PURPLE now. I cut off the splint right away, and it looks as if the spot where the break is is infected. I'm attaching pics in one second, bear with me here.
The skin was flaking off in the spot, two toes are purple, one isnt, and the break it seems hasnt healed AT ALL, i wiggled it and it still moves side to side.
The foot WASNT like this at all when i last changed splint. Now i am AFRAID to splint it, but he cant walk on that foot like that. Should he be put in one of those swing things? He doesnt use that foot much, if at all, so it must hurt. What could this be? Just infection? What does he need?
I'll be right back with pics, hold on.......

[xxmoxiexx]

Ok, someone mentioned i should put a warning before directing people to my pigeon album! It is the "saw" version of pigeons, so i am warning you, lots of sickies and injuries in there!
This guy is the last 6 pictures, and the last 3 pictures are the ones i took today. Darn, the foot is like purple black in those spots, last night it was just a little darker pink. He pooped in my hand while i was holding him (Thanks pijjie!), and it seemed very watery, like clear water, mixed with forest green chunks and streams of white urates. The green seemed to be bits, like broken up. Like pellets or something. No pic, sorry, it was all over me, had to get it off while i had him in one hand and camera in other.
http://public.fotki.com/xxscribblerxx/pigeons/

How could it have gotten so dark so quick? Seems rather sudden, but i guess it probably has been growing in size since i last changed it and it just now went past brace. Darn, i feel like an idiot right now. Should of been keeping a closer eye in him.....

[xxmoxiexx]

this is when i wish i knew of a vet nearby, and the wildlife place will only treat if they deem it releasable, and i am so afraid they will deem him unreleasable if they think it's not worth their money/time to treat the leg, or see the only option as cutting it off, which would deem him unreleasable, which would mean he would be PTS.
The goose and pigeon i gave to them in september, they STILL say they cant tell me what happened to it, they keep saying wait for our update in the mail, it'll come in a month. Well, its been many months! So frustrating!

[Feefo]

Hi Raina,

To me that looks like gangrene rather than bruising, in pigeons it is usually dry gangrene and is usually caused by lack of blood supply as a result of ligature or poisoning, but it can also be "moist gangrene" or "gas gangrene" which is caused by bacteria and contained by surgery.

The speed with which it appears to be spreading is worrying. This is really something that a vet should look at. You could start him on antibiotics. What meds do you have?

I think that you have a good collection of reference photos there and I appreciate it as a resource.

Cynthia

[xxmoxiexx]

Cr*p, i dont know a vet that knows anything about pigeons! What should i do?????
What meds does he need? I have a bunch of meds now. Just tell me what he needs and i'll see if i have it....

[Feefo]

I would give it Clavamox, you can also give Baytril at the same time (according to my vet)

This is a link to gangrene in humans, I assume the same principles of treatment apply.

http://my.diabetovalens.com/complications/gangrene.asp

I remember discussing gas gangrene with a work colleague and she said something about one day it will be a velvety spot, the next day all the toes will be black.

But this is really one for Reti, who will probably have seen it first hand in humans.

Cynthia

[xxmoxiexx]

here's what i have

ciloxin .3% eye drop 2.5 ml
Spartix 10 mg
metacam 2ml
neem oil
colloidal silver
liquid calcium
albon .10ml
azithromycin 250mg
nyastatin .8 BID/14 days
Arnica
Amoxicillan 500 mg tabs
cephalexin 500mg
cipro 500mg
amoxicillan 10% powder
enrofloxyn .2 ml/kg of B.W. for 5-7 days
ivermectin (wormer)
divet
appertex 2.5 mg
Augmentin (amoxicillan + clavulanic acid) 875/125 mg
cephalexin 50 mg
flagyl 500mg and 250 mg

Tell me what i need to give him, and PLEASE pretty please help me with the dosing! I laready KNOW what Pidgey is gonna say to that one! "You gotta learn the doses yourself SOMEDAY, why not today!" LOL!
Gimme a break and tell me the dosing before he sees this thread! He's anywhere between 260-300 grams, sorry, i'm waiting for my new scale to come in the mail, in the meantime it's the kitchen scale that is a bit harder to weigh them on, it fluctuates quite a bit, expecially with squirming birds!

[xxmoxiexx]

oops, no clavamox, darn! They have some at my cat shelter, but it is powder which you then add water to, and it's for cats. It just says how much water to add and how many ML to then give to the cat, not any kind of mg per ml info, etc...
Is there something i can give until i order some clavamox, it'll take a few days to get here though! DARN! I dont want him to lose his freakin' foot!
I mean, should i just chance it and take him to any AVIAN vet that will see him?

I have to leave for a few hours, i tube fed him, gave him baytril, considering it is sunday, cant do much vet wise anyhow. That article on gangrene is scary Cynthia! I HOPE it isnt gangrene, but i kind of suspect it is.
I'm going to try and call this rehabber lady that doesnt do rehabbing anymore, was kind of a real mean lady, ok, not kind of, was, and see if she will give me her old vets name, that is, IF she will even talk to me. I dont understand how someone can be a rehabber for years and just TURN it off like she did, i mean, like the "care" switch turned to off mode. I guess people just do get very burnt out, it is a thankless, tiring hobby, i say hobby, because it isnt a career really, you dont get paid for it. Maybe she'll help, maybe not, we'll see.

[Feefo]

You could try an avian vet, just don't do anything impulsive like having him put down without thinking it over.

If you can get Clavamox from the shelter, just ask them how much Clavamox there is in the solution. They must know that to come up with the dosage for cats. We can take it from there.

Cynthia

[Pidgey]

Gangrene is treated with Metronidazole.

Pidgey

[Feefo]

Gangrene is treated with Metronidazole.

Actually a combination such as penicillin, gentamicin and metronidazole is recommended. That covers gram negative, gram positive and anaerobes. But that is with supportive surgery because antibiotics don't penetrate the necrotic tissues. I have never used Gentamicine, I know that it can cause kidney damage in birds

Raina, I just noticed that you have amoxicillin. When pidge-pidge had a wounded wood pigeon and only 500 mg capsules of amoxicillin she used that , crushed and diluted with water.

The Clavamox 50 mg Clavamox tablets have 40mg of amoxicillin and we (in the UK) would give a large pigeon half a 40 mg tablet (20 mg) twice a day

Cynthia

[sabina]

Flagyl is metronidazole and augmentin is same as clavamox. In any case, to cover all possible pathogens, you could give amoxicillin, flagyl and cipro or baytril. Dosages...I'll look it up...

[Feefo]

Hi Sabina,

Nooti's drug chart is a quick source of reference for those three drugs:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showth...referrerid=560

The mathematics of calculating the exact dosage for a particular pidge takes me ages of calcul;ating and re-checking...I don't have a methematical brain!

Cynthia

[xxmoxiexx]

SABINA! So nice to see, i mean, hear from, i mean, you know what i mean!
So, Sabina, what do you think, gangrene? I know, you are probably wondering what happened to my plan of walking where there is no pigeons and not being able to care for anymore sickies, but, i'm a sucker, what can i say!
I'll try and get a hold of that rehabber again, because i think this one needs a vet for sure, especially if it is gangrene.
So, what would be the dosing on those meds? I'll figure it out someday, i promise! It is just so confusing to me considering the dosage is written for KG and they weigh in Grams. I know it's just a few decimal points, but honestly, i REALLY dont trust myself with it, with math in general, because i swear i could of killed a bird a while ago if it had been a different drug i was giving him!
So, Sabina, should i give the augmentin, since it is same as clavamox? And gangrene, doesnt it need to be surgically cut out, or is that not always the case?

ok, so augmentin, flagyl, and baytril? I guess at least until i can get him seen somewhere here....
Poor guy, actually, i'm pretty sure it's a gal, just a hunch really....

[sabina]

ok here's what i came up with:

flagyl 20-50mg/kg bid. going with 50mg...0.300kg x 50mg=15mg bid. using a 250mg tablet dissolved into 5ml, it would be approx 0.3ml bid

same with amoxicillin (i would go with amoxicillin over augmentin since you're already going to give 2 other antibiotics, you don't need the broader coverage of augmentin): 50mg/kg is 15 mg bid, dissolve 250mg (1/2 of 500mg tablet) into 5 ml, and it's 0.3 ml bid.

now baytril. you say it's 0.2ml/kg, that would be 0.2 x 0.3kg which would be 0.06 ml bid. but i don't like not knowing what the actual concentration is. so i would use cipro instead. but cipro isn't on helen's chart. ASSUMING the dose is the same for cipro and baytril, 20mg/kg would mean 6mg bid. divide 500mg tablet in half, dissolve 250mg into 5 ml, and that makes 50mg/ml. that would be 0.1 ml bid approximately.

anyone want to doublecheck my calculations? well the only thing i really need to know is the cipro dosage for pigeons...anyone know if same as for baytril?