Sick Youngster

[Jannet]

This morning I pulled a fully feathered youngster from the nest that looked sick. The bird feels thin, ruffled feathers, and closed eyes. It's nestmate is fine. I hand fed it this morning to get some fluids in it to see if it would come around, but it's weak. Tonight I tried to feed it again and noticed a hard lump just under the beak to one side of the face. It seems to have trouble keeping that eye open on that side too. His breathing is good and I don't see any nasal discharge, or anything in the throat. The lump is pea size, hard and not movable. I use trichocease in their water weekly. I had a canker problem in my loft a couple of years ago. Because this lump is so close to the beak and the bird is unable to eat, I'm wondering if it could be canker. The bird's droppings are watery with no real color since I have been using mostly water to hyrate him. I am really forcing him to eat to keep him alive, but now I have a "lump" that tells me something is definitely wrong, but I am not sure what I should try next. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[Pidgey]

Can you give any details on this "trichocease" product and let us see if it's sub-therapeutic? Gimme' all the stuff written on the bottle as well as the dosing information. It may be that you've bred some super-trichs.

Pidgey

[Pidgey]

And, yes, that does sound like canker. What I'm thinking is that if you'll provide the information for this Dr. Pigeon product if it's on there, then we can try to formulate a therapeutic dose to give straight to this bird. It would probably be nice if you had another anti-canker product, especially seeing as how this bird is in such dire straits and on a Saturday night to boot. If you could tell us your location, we might have a member in your area that could help out.

Pidgey

[Jannet]

The bottle reads as follows...Trichocease..A Cure and Prevention for Trichmoniasis (canker)...Contentsistilled Aloe Vera-CuSO45 H2O-Echinacea Augustifolia Extract. Directions are to add one teaspoon per gallon of water one day a week. Although it doesn't say if it is safe to use it in the breeding loft, I have never had any problems. The parents of this youngster never had a canker problem, but are housed with birds that did. Between crazy temperature changes and hawk attacks, my birds are stressed out to the max the last two weeks.

[pdpbison]

Hi Jannet,


From the description, I myself would casually walk over to the Kitchen Garbage bag, and drop this 'Trichoease' stuff into it...and walk back to whatever I was doing...

If you tell us your location, there may be members who are close enough to give you some real meds for Canker, so you can get this litte Pigeon youngster have a chance.

For now, I would think to definitely keep them warm, and well fed with a nutritious formula...

I have had many feral 'Canker Babys' and they tend to rally well once appropriate meds are started...and, so long as they are kept definitely "warm" and well hydrated and comforted generally.

What are you feeding him? and...

How are you feeding him?

Is there any 'yellow' in the poops?



Good luck!

Phi
Las Vegas

[feralpigeon]

Is that the Australian Pigeon Co? That sounds like a good combination, wouldn't mind having some myself.
Do you have any medications on hand like Carnidazole, Ronidazol or Flagyl (Metronidazole)? If not, you could call around in the morning to pet stores that carry fish supplies and ask fif they carry Fishzole/Metronidazole/Flagyl? Or, if you know someone close by who is also 'in the sport' or who does rehab, perhaps they might give you some that you could repay later. Otherwise it's a vets/doctors or the Pigeon Supply Houses. I'd use Ronidazole myself if I had a choice, it's thought of as being better tolerated by young. You may not get a choice in it all.

I picked up a two week + baby this week w/a chunk of canker under it's beak the size of a dime and having a difficult time breathing from it. It's being tube fed and doing better as the canker growth is shrinking a bit although still prominent. Your bird should do well once you get some medication down the throat.

fp

[Pidgey]

Originally Posted by Jannet

The bottle reads as follows...Trichocease..A Cure and Prevention for Trichmoniasis (canker)...Contentsistilled Aloe Vera-CuSO45 H2O-Echinacea Augustifolia Extract. Directions are to add one teaspoon per gallon of water one day a week. Although it doesn't say if it is safe to use it in the breeding loft, I have never had any problems. The parents of this youngster never had a canker problem, but are housed with birds that did. Between crazy temperature changes and hawk attacks, my birds are stressed out to the max the last two weeks.

Well, it looks like the ingredient in that combo that you'd think would be doing the work would be the copper sulfate pentahydrate (the CuSO4.5H2O). It's the copper. However, I wouldn't think that it would be good as a curative (of a sick pigeon) because it's going to get broken down and absorbed before it gets anywhere to do any good.

You really need the Flagyl (Metronidazole) or one of the others that fp mentioned. It was a lot easier to find Metronidazole in the FishZole stuff just a year or two ago but it almost seems like it's getting harder every month. It used to be a product that you could find at any PetsMart, Petco or any place like that. Good luck anymore, though. Sometimes feed stores carry it for poultry. Anyhow, you probably need to really beat the bushes fast for this little guy and try to get some tomorrow somehow even if you have to nag a vet to death for one lousy tablet.

Incidentally, Flagyl is a human-use drug for protozoal infections so they really do have some at every pharmacy. If you REALLY know a pharmacist well, you might be able to beg one out of him. That doesn't happen very often but there has been at least one person that managed that trick before. Flagyl usually comes in 250 and 500 milligram tablets.

If you were to find some, you'd probably want to try and cut up the 250 milligram tablet into 16 pieces and give one of those once a day, maybe even two that first day. If it were the 500, then it'd be even funner to divide it up. I don't know how much this baby weighs but that's near enough in an emergency. Since you're a breeder, certainly you know a few racers in your area, right? Have you tried that avenue?

Pidgey

[feralpigeon]

Acidified Copper Sulphate is used for Trichomoniasis and fungal infections, and I did have this one link that was pretty interesting on tests done in Israel but I can't seem to find it right now. Probably on a different computer. But this drug advertisement is an interesting one from a drug supplier in Israel:

http://www.health.gov.il/units/pharm...91613+00&safa=

"Indications:
For use in cases of sepsis due to fungi or trichomoniasis in chicken and turkey."

Anyway, using it as a treatment/preventative is supposed to aid in avoiding the issue of drug resistancy for canker meds.

I still see Metronidazole/Fishzole/Flagyl being carried in stores that sell products for fish/aquarium supplies, especially stores that specialize in aquarium supplies, so regarding pet supply stores I'd check w/this kind first.
Hopefully there's someone you can 'beg' from close by, and if possible get
Ronidazole which is preferable for babies/youngsters.

fp

[Jannet]

Thanks for all your help. Unfortunately he died the next day. The lump was larger by the next day, and he had difficulty in breathing. I was able to get the medicine, but it was too late. The nestmate is doing fine, and should be to the floor any day. My question is (for my own piece of mind), is... could it of been a tumor, and not canker? The reason being, the nestmate is fine. With canker being so contagious, and having the same parents, could one sibling get it and not the other?

[feralpigeon]

Sorry to hear the baby didnt' make it. The other sibling may just not be showing visible signs right now. You might want to treat the other baby and treat the parents as well before they breed again to be on the safe side. I'm not thinking that it was a tumor/cancer as that would be more unlikely than canker although possible. You could get a necropsy which might put your mind at ease.

fp

[Trees Gray]

I'm so sorry the youngster died.

I would do a round of treatment for all the birds before they breed again, and the necropsy would be the best way to put your mind at ease. Keep a close eye on these parents and baby and make sure to check them regurlarly for any symptoms.

Canker is not something to fool around with, it has to be one of the most devastating diseases, especially if it is not caught early. This may or may not be the case, but a necropsy would definitely tell all.

[Pidgey]

Originally Posted by Jannet

Thanks for all your help. Unfortunately he died the next day. The lump was larger by the next day, and he had difficulty in breathing. I was able to get the medicine, but it was too late. The nestmate is doing fine, and should be to the floor any day. My question is (for my own piece of mind), is... could it of been a tumor, and not canker? The reason being, the nestmate is fine. With canker being so contagious, and having the same parents, could one sibling get it and not the other?

"Canker" is just a common name for the presentation of the clinical disease. Not all birds come down with the clinical disease even when exposed to the organism. Most of the wild pigeons that you see are carrying the trichomonads and I can usually always find it in throat swabs and wet-mounts. There are many strains, some more and some less virulent. For ferals, it's actually better that most of them are infected with less virulent strains because it gives them immunity to the worse ones. For racing homers, a busy immune system means that there's less energy for racing so you usually don't want it in your loft.

I guess the thing that stands out in my mind about this experience is that you've been using an anti-canker product extremely often and it may not have prevented the incidence of canker in your loft. While it's been suggested that you take the bird in for a necropsy, I rather doubt that you kept the body (frozen or otherwise) for that purpose up to this point. If you did then they could easily explore the lump and tell you whether it was a tumor or a mass of spent leukocytes that is the bird equivalent of our more-watery pus and the primary visible calling-card of canker. That doesn't absolutely mean it had to BE canker but if I were you, I'd call my vet and see if they can/will perform crop swabs on the parents and then examine the "wet-mount" slides microscopically for trichomonads. If they test positive, then it's a very good bet that your anti-canker product is a waste of money and you need to use something better.

Pidgey

[feralpigeon]

Janet, I frequently use alternative 'canker' treatments and believe they have their place on the shelf here as they can 'stretch the window' in between using the regular Trichomoniasis medications. I just wouldn't substitute the normal meds for alternative ones when they are having full blown symptoms, or for preventative dosing during the year. Most of the alternative products create an acidic environment that in itself discourages the growth of the Trichomonad population in addition to other unwanted organisms. This is one of the reasons that Gordon Chalmers and many other avian vets recommend the use of ACV in the water as part of the weekly regimine. Here are a couple of links for you regarding Trichomoniasis/Canker that may prove useful for you, the first is Colon Walker's treatment program for 'canker in the loft':

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/

http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdire...ankerpart1.cfm

As for the necropsy, I'm not even sure if you have in hand the name/number
of anyone to contact for the procedure. If not, maybe give your general
where abouts and members can help you locate a name. It may not help you
this time around, but would be good information to have on hand. There are some classic ways that canker manifests that would be definitive when viewed beyond whether the actual organism is alive.

Lastly, here is a link from the resource section for the Pigeon Supply Houses in case you don't have this information:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

fp

[AZWhitefeather]

Jannet,
I'm so sorry to hear the little one was unable to recover.

Cindy