Smelly crop, black poop, puffed feathers?

[Janet]

Out of the two born about 2-3 weeks ago, one of them I think is sick. Her poop is black, I guess like tar. Her mouth is slightly open and has a foul odor. Her neck feathers are puffed and her crop looks full but is empty. We gave her an antibiotic that we had on hand and put her in a box with a infrared lamp. We put water in there as well. However, I don't know if this is what I should be doing. I don't know if I'm paranoid or if she should be seen. We took her out of the loft just in case. I caught a mouse in there the other day and don't know if that could have anything to do with this. Any suggestions?

[Pidgey]

What medications do you have?

Pidgey

[Reti]

That sounds like sour crop and you will need to act fast as it can be deadly. Do you have a vet you can take the baby to?
Until then keep him warm and do not feed. Do you have an oral antifungal like Nystatin? If you give oral antibiotics he won't be absorbing them because of his sour crop so it is useless. Rather give him injectable if you have any. Nystatin acts locally so you could give that.
A vet would flush the crop and that would be the best thing to do at this point.

Reti

[Pidgey]

You can smear the black poop out on a white piece of paper to see if it's really a dark green. Black tarlike poops can sometimes indicate internal bleeding into the intestines. You don't usually see that in one so young but it's possible you've got an enteric Paratyphoid. Sour breath is probably more often caused by canker but I think other things can do it.

Pidgey

[Janet]

So many diseases that pigeons can get. This is crazy. How can someone keep up or remember all this. We gave her something that the vet gave us awhile ago when a bird had a broken wing, to fight infection if there were any. Its called Trimethoprim Sulfa oral susp. I'll get her to the vet first thing tomorrow. Do you think she'll make it that long? She had been in the loft with the other birds, can she have passed it to them? What is "sour crop"? How do birds get this or even Canker?

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by Janet

Out of the two born about 2-3 weeks ago, one of them I think is sick. Her poop is black, I guess like tar. Her mouth is slightly open and has a foul odor. Her neck feathers are puffed and her crop looks full but is empty. We gave her an antibiotic that we had on hand and put her in a box with a infrared lamp. We put water in there as well. However, I don't know if this is what I should be doing. I don't know if I'm paranoid or if she should be seen. We took her out of the loft just in case. I caught a mouse in there the other day and don't know if that could have anything to do with this. Any suggestions?

Foul smell indicates either sourcrop (I think most likely) or canker. You can look in the mouth and see a cheesy looking substance that smells very bad and it often is outside the mouth as well. This would be canker.

Either one of these is very easy to cure with the right meds and if it's sourcrop, you may already have the cure as a quarter tab of Pepto Bismol orally for a few days will cure it.

If it is canker, you need a stronger med and there are pills or water soluble liquids and powders. I like the pills as they are very simple to use. You can give 250mg of Emtryl tablets for about 3 days and it will usually cure it. The tablets that I have are for treating turkeys and are 1000mg so they need to be quartered for a pigeon. You may have to look to a vet supply or a pigeon supply to find these meds.

If you have no meds on hand but have Pepto Bismol, I'd start with it. I guarantee that it will not hurt the bird and if it has sourcrop for long, it will probably die.

Canker would be my next concern but you should be able to see this by looking into the mouth.

Paratyphoid was mentioned but if the feces are black, it's either blood or something else. Check it for blood as Pidgey says. Paratyphoid is a fairly common problem and requires a 14 day treatment (I'd use Albon or Sulmet) and it is also fairly easily cured if the bird is not too far gone. The first symptom that I am aware of is green feces, not black. Advanced symptoms are swollen joints which result in lameness or a droopy wing and some claim it to show neurological symptoms such as head twisting and lack of balance, although I have never seen this with Paratyphoid.

Bill

[Pidgey]

Uhh... Emtryl (Dimetridazole) is probably the most toxic anti-canker and they don't tolerate overdosing on that at all.

Pidgey

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by Pidgey

Uhh... Emtryl (Dimetridazole) is probably the most toxic anti-canker and they don't tolerate overdosing on that at all.

Pidgey

I've treated every pigeon that I ever had with canker with it and it is very effective. I've seen other posts that talked against it as well but I've never in my life lost a pigeon to canker and have cured every single one that ever had it with Emtryl. Have you ever tried it? I've never treated more than 3 days with it and they were cured.

I treated a 10 year old hen with it about 2 weeks ago for what was either an eye cold or canker and she is now fine and laid eggs a couple days ago. I had nothing for an eye cold, took a chance and she's fine. She had a total of 750mg over a 3 day period.

Bill

[Pidgey]

Dimetridazole is dosed in pigeons at between 20 and 50 milligrams of medicine per kilogram of bird per day. I'm not sure what breed of pigeon Janet's referring to, but we might be in the 125 to 150 gram class so you'd be looking at something like 20 * 0.15 = 3.0 milligrams for the chick of that stuff for the low dose and 7.5 for the highest, as an example.

Pidgey

[Pidgey]

Oh, yes, that's the one that I use when I flock treat and it's a powder for the waterer. There are cases of them getting too much of it and it's a bit on the toxic side. I'm just very careful with it. There's documentation to go with that.

Pidgey

[Janet]

You said something about droopy wings. Yes- we have noticed that today. God- I hope she'll make it to the vet tomorrw. Watch - my luck, the avian Dr won't be in. Is the heat lamp good for tonight? She's not shutting her mouth all the way. I didn't see anything on the outside. I also wasn't able to see on the inside real well either. I told my hubby not to feed her in the morning. I think someone said not to. I figured I would try to get her checked out first. Unfortunately, I have no pepto on hand. Will anything else help for tonite. I'm afraid of giving her something that might make her worse.

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by Pidgey

Oh, yes, that's the one that I use when I flock treat and it's a powder for the waterer. There are cases of them getting too much of it and it's a bit on the toxic side. I'm just very careful with it. There's documentation to go with that.

Pidgey

That's why I like the pills. They are super easy to use. Yes, if I had a small bird, a baby, I'd give it less but it's safe to say that some of my birds have had more than I would like as I don't weigh or measure the tablets. I quarter them and some are alittle big and some alittle small. The best I can do by cutting them by hand. This has never created a problem of any kind. It's a very fast cure.

I have seen others, as I said, to knock this med but it's all I've ever used for canker and also as I said, I have literally never lost a pigeon to canker.

I'd never treat the whole flock for canker as I've never had the need to. It is a very rare occurance for me to see it. When I was a kid, I had more trouble as I did not take as good of care of my pigeons as I should have and was not as attentive to keeping waterers clean, etc. An old pigeon breeder told me about Emtryl tablets and I've had them ever since.

The bird that I have that had the eye cold or canker, whichever she had, was the first I have treated with Emtryl in probably 20 years and have never had any reason to treat for canker otherwise. The tablets are over 20 years old but she is cured.

I would be much more hesitant to put this into the water as if a bird drank more than it should (for whatever reason) it could overdose itself. The tablets are a sure way to go and I'd still use nothing else.

I think the fear of this med is overrated but I would not put it into the water for all to drink. Have you ever had an entire flock of pigeons with canker? I haven't and I don't know anyone else who has either. The tablets for individual treatment have been completely safe in my experience.

Bill

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by Janet

You said something about droopy wings. Yes- we have noticed that today. God- I hope she'll make it to the vet tomorrw. Watch - my luck, the avian Dr won't be in. Is the heat lamp good for tonight? She's not shutting her mouth all the way. I didn't see anything on the outside. I also wasn't able to see on the inside real well either. I told my hubby not to feed her in the morning. I think someone said not to. I figured I would try to get her checked out first. Unfortunately, I have no pepto on hand. Will anything else help for tonite. I'm afraid of giving her something that might make her worse.

Paratyphoid rarely causes both wings to droop although it could. I suspect that just feeling terrible is the cause. Similar to when we feel horrible, we slump and look generally crappy.

Do your best to see inside the mouth, this is important. Use a flashlight if you have to. They don't want you to hold their mouth open but it is important to diagnose the problem.

I can't think of anything else you could do at a late hour. This bird could need meds soon and it needs to be addressed as soon as possible. If you are willing to and can, the vet should have something for you.

Maybe Pidgey or someone else here has some other ideas.

Bill

[jbangelfish]

Originally Posted by Janet

You said something about droopy wings. Yes- we have noticed that today. God- I hope she'll make it to the vet tomorrw. Watch - my luck, the avian Dr won't be in. Is the heat lamp good for tonight? She's not shutting her mouth all the way. I didn't see anything on the outside. I also wasn't able to see on the inside real well either. I told my hubby not to feed her in the morning. I think someone said not to. I figured I would try to get her checked out first. Unfortunately, I have no pepto on hand. Will anything else help for tonite. I'm afraid of giving her something that might make her worse.

If you find an obstruction in the birds throat, such as canker, you can remove some of this very carefully to clear the airway. The open mouth makes me wonder if it isn't canker. You have to be very careful as this is a delicate area and you don't want to puncure anything. A toothpick will work but break the end so it's not too sharp. This would be only if you find an obstruction and if it doesn't look like it could be picked off, it may be better to leave it alone as it could be something else.

Bill

[Charis]

Janet,
Did you order the medications that were on the list I sent you several weeks back? If so, you should have the canker medication.
I would disagree about removing canker.
If the bird wants to eat in the morning I think you should let her. The vet will want to see a fecal sample and if she hasn't eaten there won't be any fecal to look at.