sour crop ?

[pigifan]

I have had a pigeon for 1.5 days which seems to have a full (distended) crop.
I picked him up because he was ruffled up and reluctant to fly.
I medicated for canker coccidiosis.
He eats very little and his crop looks bigger than a normal fed pigeon.
He doesn't move much.
Today he was trying to regurgitate, like they do when feeding babies or before kissing.
Cynthia has provided me with some sour crop tablets, should I give him some?

[pigifan]

I just read that sour crop should result in a bad smell - my pigeon's beak doesn't smell.
There are some traces of white both in the lower and upper beak.

[Feefo]

Hi Pigifan,

It won't do any harm to give him one of the tablets, I haven't used them but John got them from a fancier that swears by them. I think that the main ingredient is activated charcoal.

According to Colin Walker (the Flying Vet) , most cases of slow crop are caused by canker, so continue with the Spartrix.

When my Woodie's crop wasn't emptyinm the vet prescribed Spartrix and Nystatin. Unfortunately we can't get Nystatin without a prescription.

Sometimes a few of drops of liquid Paraffin helps.

It is possible to empty the crop and flush it, I have never done that so I will leave it to those who have done this to explain how they went about it.

Good luck

Cynthia

[jazaroo]

Hi Pigifan,

The condition you describe crop/GI stasis can be life threatening and should be addressed as soon as possible. The problem you are seeing with what you are calling sour crop may just be that, but may also indicative of something wrong deeper down in the GI track, in the proventriculus, ventriculus or the intestinal track.

I don’t know your skill level with regards to treating, but I would first remove all food right now and see if you can get some warm water into him, say 5-6cc. I would then massage his crop to see if you can break up whatever is in there that may have him stopped up. The water will also provide a vehicle to help him regurgitate the crop contents if what is in there is too thick or hardened for him to get up, if this is what he was trying to do.

If this does not work to get things moving, the next step would be a crop flush/wash which I will not describe how to do right now , but if what I described earlier does not help, this is what will need to be done. The procedure itself is fairly straight forward, but there is a real danger the bird could asphyxiate and die immediately from the contents of the crop going down the wrong way or go on to develop pneumonia if even a little of the contents gets into his lungs if it is not done right. This is best left to a Vet to do.

The very best thing you could perhaps do would be to get this bird to a Vet ASAP, as even if the crop gets emptied the bird may need fluid therapy, as the GI stasis will cause dehydration, moreover, the Vet may be able to make the best determination on the treatment and medicines necessary to get him well again.

I hope this helps for now and good luck with him,

Ron

[pdpbison]

Hi Pigifan,


Can you tell us how the crop 'feels' to your fingers?

Is it 'slushy' and dense?

Is it 'firm' and not 'slushy'?

Is it 'gassy' or inflated feeling? Like it has air in it? Or has air in the top half?

Has the Pigeon made any poops? And if so, would you describe them in number and consistancy?

Have him on a light colored Towell, in a Warm Cage ( Heating Pad) to both make him more comfortable, and to make the poops easier to see and count.

If he is pooping, then his system is probably managing to deal with things, but I would still Treat him presently for various possible illnesses or conditions.


My own prefered reginem for any of the above, is to use the ACV-Water, ( Three Tablespoons of Raw, Apple Cider Vinegar, into a Gallon of good Water - and this then for his drinking Water ) and in most Winter occasions, I offer it 'warm', warming it each time in it's little bowl, by sitting it in a pan of warm Water first, so it will be comfortable and not chilling, for the sick Bird to drink...

And, as others have pointed out above, he probably has something else or something more going on than 'just' that his Crop may not be emptying in a timely way...and Canker is sometimes such a culprit, or having eaten some bad or inappropriate food ( or a foreign non-food object, ) could have messed him up with no Canker involved. Candida can cause a Crop Stasis and sometimes bruising or injury can also...so, let us know on those poops...and keep him warm!


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas

[pigifan]

Thank you all for your quick replies.

The crop has emptied.
It was getting less distended even before I gave a sour crop tablet.

The crop was soft and slushy.
The number of poops was normal but they weren't as firm as a healthy pigeon (but I think ferals have runnier poops than my own "domesticated ferals" that are fed better food).
The dark bit in the poops was slightly darker than normal (even before the charcoal tablet).
In the lower crop or area below (stomach?) there may be something harder which is not the hard bit of the trachea or larynx that protrudes but I am not sure.

I will try some water. Luckily, today I bought Apple Cider Vinegar for me, and then I came to the forum to find out it would be useful for the pigeon too.

[Pidgey]

Incidentally, I had one out in the loft come down with something that caused some GI stasis--almost nothing moving through with the tiniest blob of bile and some urates. His crop was jam-packed with seeds for over 24 hours so I brought him in the house and ran the standard battery of tests (fecal float, fecal smear, crop swab) but no worm eggs, no coccidial oocysts, no apparent fungal budding yeasts or hyphae and no trichomonads--just motile short rod bacteria.

I gave him some Baytril for that augmented with Metronidazole (it DOES gets some anaerobes that Baytril won't get, you know, so it's an excellent combination) but he'd throw up every time I gave him anything. But he wouldn't throw it all up and it was obvious that he needed to. There was too much field corn and it didn't smell good at all. So, I tubed water in him a few times in order to get him to throw up more and more. He finally got it all up and then we began antibiotic treatment in earnest. After about three days, he's doing great and I let him back out in the loft although he's still getting him daily meds.

It may simply be that he ate too much corn and it logjammed on him. When their systems stop flowing for whatever reason, things can start going bad en masse. When I let him re-start eating, I only let him have small seeds. I let him starve for a couple of days (and he really did want to eat badly) and drink just water before I let him start eating again. He's back to his old self now (he really didn't lose any weight on this venture but he would have given some time) but I'll have to keep an eye on him for awhile.

Pidgey

[Pidgey]

Originally Posted by pigifan

In the lower crop or area below (stomach?) there may be something harder which is not the hard bit of the trachea or larynx that protrudes but I am not sure.

Their stomachs are actually more back between their legs as you're looking at the bird. That is, it's within the rib cage deep inside. The only thing that you feel on the outside in front of their shoulders and breasts is the crop.

Pidgey

[pigifan]

I was thinking that if it was due to overeating there should be a bad smell - there isn't.

Also now that the crop has emptied I think this is quite a light bird for his size.

You can feel the breastbone (but you can do this in many ferals).
He is not too skinny though.
Still quite lethargic . The emptying of the crop hasn't brought about a change in mood.

Should I give Baytril as well?
Is metronidazole similar to spartrix ?

[Pidgey]

Once upon a time before I'd established my lab, the way to go in the hard cases was to shoot them with the big four (Canker, Coccidiosis, Worms & Bacterial) right off the bat just to cover the bases. Frankly, when it comes to very sick birds and you or they don't have much time, that's not a bad strategy as long as a few rules are followed. Many of us have grown more conservative because we've seen them go back to their flocks a seemingly healthy bird and then disappear within a few days or weeks. Since I've kept many long-term in the loft, I'm well aware that they can end up being immuno-compromised for awhile after an aggressive treatment plan and need some time with no stress to get their immune system back on its own recognizance before they can safely be released.

So... what's that white stuff in the mouth look like?

Pidgey

[Pidgey]

By the way, yes, Metronidazole and Spartrix are very similar drugs in the same family, and are used for the same thing (anti-canker, but they also have some activity against some anaerobic bacteria). You wouldn't normally use them concurrently unless you literally didn't have enough of either to do the job in a given dose.

Pidgey

[pigifan]

The white stuff looks like it's just a beak discoloration. It doesn't look like it is an extra layer, different from the beak. I just mentioned it because I found it in a site. I don't think it's yeast/bacteria.

I don't have metronidazole but I use Spartrix.

[Pidgey]

Spartrix is Carnidazole, by the way. Most of the anti-cankers are in the Nitroimidazole family. Some are safer, some aren't. Dimetridazole (Emtryl) is one that wasn't. So, these white spots are on the inside of the beak on the parts that oughta' be pink, huh?

Pidgey

[jazaroo]

Hi Pigifan,

I am glad to hear his GI track is moving.

I am in agreement with Pidgey and I think Phil has also mentioned that when there are problems with GI stasis if it is at all possible, to let them go a day or two wihtout food and just the ACV water to help clear things out. With the lack of conclusive tests as to the cause of the problem I don't think it would be a bad idea to add the Baytril along with the Spartrix. By the way do you have a weight and age on this little one?

All the best,

Ron

[pigifan]

I gave (organic) apple cider vinegar warm water (5cc) and Baytril.
I had given Spartrix 6 hours ago.

I think these white spots are on the outer edges ( periphery) of the beak.
I think they are in the otherwise dark area. Some could be in the pink area.
To my untrained eye they just look like a variation in colour.
I have a pigeon that has 2 white toenails and the rest are black - I suspect something similar.

As you have to open the beak to see them I'll check again tomorrow because I don't want to disturb him again, he looks very tired and normally his bedtime (if he were outside) should have been 6 hours ago. That's when it gets dark here.

I guess he is approx 300 gr.
I think I would normally expect 350-400 gr for a larger (male) feral like him.
The PMV victims I normally find are about the same weight but they have been having some difficulty in getting enough food and they have been slightly smaller.

He is not a squeaker and he must be over 3 months old, possibly over 6.

He could be an old bird.