Trouble clearing up watery poop - suggestions?

[TheSnipes]

This is long but I thought I better include background. I bolded the specific questions in case someone might offer suggestions but doesn't want to wade through a lot of info-blah.

I have a loft with 12 birds and have been seeing 'off' droppings in there for some time. I scrape up the poo twice a day when i feed/water so I get lots of opportunity to examine fresh droppings. When it started there were watery droppings and I could tell it was one or at most two birds because most of the poop in there was normal. At that time all the birds had decided it was time to mate nest and lay eggs, so I considered it likely hormonal and alternated probiotics with vitamin/mineral supplements. I also gave a yeast/garlic powder on the seed about once a week and that went on for about two weeks.

The watery poo did not clear up with that treatment and in fact it got worse becoming more like an army-green colored amorphous pile (not watery just loose) with an awful smell.

At that point I treated the flock with Foy's 4-in-1 which treats for canker, cocci, e-coli, and paratyphoid. From digging around on PT I thought any of the first 3 things might be involved. The treatment regimen was for 7 days after which I went back to alternating clear water with probios and vitamins.

The foul smelling droppings did get better during the week of therapy and though there are some softer, messier looking droppings mixed in with more normal ones I put that down to normal variation and trid not to make too much of it. They are breeding still after all and laying etc. However - and this is the reason for posting, it does seem like the problem is slowly getting worse again.

The birds have NOT been wormed this year (they are all late '06 or '07 birds) so that was something else I wanted to do but wanted to get them adjusted from the week of medication first.

Yesterday I treated them with LEVASOLE soluble powder, for worms, which has to be repeated in 12 days. This morning I found lots of very watery droppings in the loft, much worse than what I've been seeing since treating with the 4-in-1. Could very watery droppings (with stringy dark green parts) be caused by the de-worming?

I have been trying without success to identify which bird is the culprit since this all began. I have suspicions but I really don't know who it is so I have no choice but to flock treat. There are 2 12-day-old squabs in the loft and I hate exposing them to medications through their parents but if this is due to illness I will have to. Meanwhile, what is/are the best non-medicinal treatments for 'garbage gut' in case it's just an out-of-whack intestinal tract; things I can use in between treating with meds? I have read suggestions for ACV, garlic, silver, probios...?? Can/should I try using all of these? Is there a 'best' approach? The probios are all that I have on hand from that list and as I mentioned I've been using them and the problem stubbornly persists so I'd like to try something else.

I guess I should add the very bad odor has not returned at this time.

Finally - has anyone ever made use of Foy's fecal-test-by-mail service? I have access to an avian vet who will do a test but won't prescribe treatment or therapy without actually seeing the bird but I am certainly not taking 12 birds to the office just so he can charge me a million dollars.

Sorry this is so long and thanks to anyone who plods through this post. I'm getting frustrated because I suspect something is afoot and the things I've tried were the ones that seemed likely but so far not successful.

[Birdmom4ever]

The long post was good, as background info is helpful. I'm sure there will be more suggestions, but my initial reaction is that the droppings are still out of whack because of all the medication. My inclination would be to use apple cider vinegar and probiotics every other day and clear water the rest of the time and see if they improve. If your pigeons otherwise seems healthy, their gut flora is probably just out of sorts and proper balance needs to be restored.

What kind of probiotics are you using? If it's not human grade it may not be any good. My vet told me that if it hasn't been kept refrigerated, it's worthless. I now get mine from the health food store. I use the Jarrow-Dophilius brand.

-Cathy

[Maggie-NC]

I would go with Cathy's recommendation for now and stop everything except begin using ACV daily for about 5 days, then follow with a probiotic. Now, we do use Probios and like it but I would try the one Cathy recommended.

Even if your vet won't medicate or treat without the bird in hand, if he can at least analyze the poop droppings then maybe our members can help you from there. Make sure the poop is very fresh and you can send samples from several birds at one time since they're all together. We do this from time to time when we send ours to our vet for routine testing.

I have heard of members using Foy's poop testing service and it is probably ok but if your vet could at least check it will be much quicker.

[Pidgey]

According to my vet, there is a version of PMV that doesn't produce the typical neurological signs. Instead, it mostly affects the kidneys and the GI. One of the symptoms is the stringy poop in the middle of the watery puddle. That's not the only thing that will do that, of course, so I think you need to get some poop samples analyzed somewhere as soon as possible. Do you or have you ever vaccinated for PMV? And Paratyphoid?

Pidgey

[TheSnipes]

Thanks Cathy, Maggie, Pidgey --

I will go and get the ACV and get a human quality probiotic today. I've been using the Foy's probios and I didn't store it in the fridge, so maybe it's been ineffective.

I know I'm hitting the poor birds with an onslaught of medications so that's why I've been trying the probios/vitamins in between.

After my message I stopped in to check for new droppings and there are some, very watery, and I saw these in it:


If I didn't have this forum for help I would assume those are worms??? Coming out in their poo cuz of the treatment!?!?

The idea of PMV or other more serious condition is very worrisome - I have NOT yet vaccinated these birds for anything, I want to, but: I'm trying to stagger treatments out a bit; also I believe I read it here that it might be wise not to vaccinate very young birds, but better to allow them some exposure to 'normal' flora and allow their natural immune systems to develop before vaccinating them. That made me think I should wait a few more months. Four of them are just about 6 months old. when (if??) I get this nagging thing cleared up I think it will be OK age-wise to go ahead with their vaccinations.

[Pidgey]

Roundworms. Oo. Need to start cleaning up the place real well for the next few days.

Pidgey

[Pidgey]

You've probably got a lot of worm eggs in all the poop and dust that's all over the floor. In the old days, some folks would "flame" the floor to kill all the various bugs (bacteria, coccidia, worm eggs, etc.) and if you're set up to do that, now would be a good time.

Pidgey

[Maggie-NC]

Whew! I do believe the culprits have been discovered! Plain old roundworms. I'll bet within a day or so you'll see a big difference in them.

Be sure to follow up with the 12 day worming.

[TheSnipes]

Hi Pidgey,

I scrub it with bleach normally once a week. I will scrub daily for a while if need be.

Ummm..."flaming?" I am picturing something like napalm here... that can't be what you mean?

I could spray the floor with a pesticide, if that would help...or sprinkle sevin powder?

[Pidgey]

Well, not napalm, exactly... but they used to use an old torch. You can go to this old post and click the link therein to see an example of those old kind of blowtorches:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=121474

Not much will work to kill the worm eggs as far as insecticides, though.

Pidgey

[TheSnipes]

Well I read through that thread..I am definitely NOT certified competent to blow-torch my loft. I can just hear myself explaining it to the fire dept.

I can, however, remove the top surface couple of inches of floor material and get rid of that, (perhaps by bonfire!) Maybe that will help. I am in the process of flooring the loft with cement blocks and am about 1/3 done so am removing material as I go, hopefully that will help.

I might have to subject the birds to this worming therapy on occasion to be sure they haven't been reinfected?

[Pidgey]

Yeah, that's a cyclic kind of thing. It's possible to have a loft where there simply aren't any worms but when you've got proof-positive, it's time to go on the offensive and stay there for awhile.

Pidgey

[feralpigeon]

It's recommended that birds are treated three times a year whether eggs are
visible in droppings or not. The eggs not always showing up in fecal floats
is one issue, they also can burrough in the mucosa and hang around...hatching
at a later point in time. They also can migrate outside of the digestive tract
to other areas that an intestinal dewormer doesn't have impact with. It's not
uncommon to view a success rate for removal of worm eggs as being less than
100%.

Regarding the usage of other products that are herbal in between rotational
usage of medications, GEM products carries this item:

http://www.gemsupplements.com/gempro...emproducts.htm

"TRIKANOX


Trikanox represents a significant step forward in pigeon healthcare and provides fanciers with a totally natural product containing three powerful active ingredients which work together to boost the pigeons defences against diseases. Two of these properties have been shown by independent research to exhibit anti-protozoal and anti fungal properties.


Active Component 1 - Mixed Alkaloids

The first component of TRIKANOX is a mixture of plant Alkaloids with the dominant one being Berberine, which has been scientifically proven to have extensive activity in preventing the growth of many micro-organisms including protozoa such as Trichomonas.


Active Component 2 - Allicin

The second active component of TRIKANOX is allicin. This non antibiotic sulphur containing plant ingredient is now recognised as having a dramatic inhibitory effect on a wide range of micro-organisms including protozoa.


Active Component 3 - Echinacosides

The plant family Echinacea has long been associated with beneficial effects on the immune system. Scientific evidence is now showing that certain components within the plant are largely responsible for these effects. The end result is that the Echinacosides can boost the pigeons normal defence mechanisms."

There are other natural products, Jedd's does carry Trikanox and others, though Trikanox won't show up on their on-line catalogue. Maintaining a good balance for thier gut flora/fauna is pretty important in terms of maintaining good health and the resultant droppings.

If you continue to see off droppings, with your current efforts, you might
want to consider isolating the bird that you believe to be having the health
issues to see if you are correct. If so, at least you can continue efforts w/just this one and not have to subject all to the additional treatments.

fp

[Charis]

"Well I read through that thread..I am definitely NOT certified competent to blow-torch my loft. I can just hear myself explaining it to the fire dept."
That's really funny!

[TheSnipes]

the loft is duly scrubbed again, i even replaced the nest material and scrubbed the nest bowl for the babies, the parents can lump it if they don't like it. It really was getting nasty and I hate that anyway.

Thanks everyone for your input, I will keep up the hyper-cleaning for a few days, use the supplements and do the worming again on the 12th day. I feel better about possibly knowing what we are dealing with.

FP that sounds like an interesting product, have you tried it? I think I will add it to my shopping list!