Update/second opinion Beau the dove

[overwelmedd]

I'm completely frustrated with people my area. I'm not sure if there are other Southern Michigan people on this forum that keep pigeons or assist orphaned/injured animals but trying to find Vets, rehabbers and medications for these animals is ridiculous. No one wants to help these animals. They've given me the impression that if its not a "conventional pet" then it doesn't need human/medical assistance. Again today I talked to a woman who is supposedly experienced in wild birds and she said vaccinations/ preventitive medications are not needed. No one seems to have heard of pox, canker, worms, etc. GRRRRRRRRRRR!

OK I've vented.

Here is my status. I will have Flagyl by tomorrow thanks to my nephew I do have 1cc syringes. Beau now weighs 3.9 oz (nephew can convert to grams) I also have Karo syrup and/or honey for diluting. I will begin adding egg yolk to meals for additional protein. I understand doseage instructions. How many days should he get the Flagyl? Another Pox question too. I know pox takes a few weeks to resolve. I've read approx 8 weeks. Is that accurate? Will he continue to get lesions the entire time?

Gina

[feralpigeon]

Originally Posted by overwelmedd

I'm completely frustrated with people my area. I'm not sure if there are other Southern Michigan people on this forum that keep pigeons or assist orphaned/injured animals but trying to find Vets, rehabbers and medications for these animals is ridiculous. No one wants to help these animals. They've given me the impression that if its not a "conventional pet" then it doesn't need human/medical assistance. Again today I talked to a woman who is supposedly experienced in wild birds and she said vaccinations/ preventitive medications are not needed. No one seems to have heard of pox, canker, worms, etc. GRRRRRRRRRRR!

OK I've vented.

Here is my status. I will have Flagyl by tomorrow thanks to my nephew I do have 1cc syringes. Beau now weighs 3.9 oz (nephew can convert to grams) I also have Karo syrup and/or honey for diluting. I will begin adding egg yolk to meals for additional protein. I understand doseage instructions. How many days should he get the Flagyl? Another Pox question too. I know pox takes a few weeks to resolve. I've read approx 8 weeks. Is that accurate? Will he continue to get lesions the entire time?

Gina

That's great news that you will have the medicine tomorrow, Gina, many thanks to your nephew. The general rule of thumb is 5-7 days, I'd probably
go for the seven days in your dove's case. There are therapeutic regimines
w/Metronidazole which last for weeks, so I don't believe you are crossing a dangerous threshold treating for 7 days.

I think 8 weeks is the outside time frame, 6 weeks would be more average. You'll notice less virulent symptoms/activity w/a general cessation of symptoms.

Since you have both, I would use honey as it is more nutritious. Only submerge the tip when drawing up, it can get pretty messy otherwise.

I'm sorry for all the frustration that you have had trying to get health care
for this dove. We do have some resources which yield local leads, something
to work on later. I'm just glad this dove found his/her way to you for care,
otherwise things would have been pretty grim.

fp

[feralpigeon]

In the event that you keep the dove, you should get familiar w/the Resource
Section of this site as there are many informative threads/stickies there:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/

In the Resource Section, you will find the Pigeon Supply House stickie which
lists the more well known Pij supply houses:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/pi...only-9455.html

Hope this helps and please keep us updated as to the response to the Metronidazole.

fp

[alhowiriny]

3.9 oz = ~ 110 grams

Avian Pox has two forms, (cutaneous) charactrized by externally growing pimple-like lesions (especially on nonfeathered areas of the bird, eyes, vent..), and the other form is (diphtheritic) charactrized by internally yellowish lesions (especially on mouth, trachea.. etc). Birds can have both or one of the two forms and it takes from 4 to 8 weeks to resolve and that depends on the virulence of the virus.. when the infection reachs its peak it stops producing lesions.

[feralpigeon]

Originally Posted by alhowiriny

3.9 oz = ~ 110 grams

Avian Pox has two forms, (cutaneous) charactrized by externally growing pimple-like lesions (especially on nonfeathered areas of the bird, eyes, vent..), and the other form is (diphtheritic) charactrized by internally yellowish lesions (especially on mouth, trachea.. etc). Birds can have both or one of the two forms and it takes from 4 to 8 weeks to resolve and that depends on the virulence of the virus.. when the infection reachs its peak it stops producing lesions.

There is also a third noted form of pigeon pox virus, known as septicemic or acute which involves organ(s).

A quote from Clinical Avian Medicine:

"A yellow coating of
the mucosa can be seen with trichomoniasis, candidiasis,
the diphtheric form of avian pox or vitamin A deficiency
or excess."

I don't know the history of this bird, but if extended antibiotic treatment has
occurred, it may be wise to have the dove on antifungal meds. Being a wild bird, it's more likely that if there is a problem w/Vitamin A it would lean towards deficiency as opposed to excess.

fp

[alhowiriny]

Actually there are four Forms (Cutaneous, dphtheritic, Systemic, Oncogenic).
Source : Diseases of Poultry 12th Edition Chapter10; Page 298 Under Pathology.

The only forms that show Clinical signs are Cutaneous (dry pox) and dphtheritic (wet pox).

[feralpigeon]

Originally Posted by alhowiriny

Actually there are four Forms (Cutaneous, dphtheritic, Systemic, Oncogenic).
Source : Diseases of Poultry 12th Edition Chapter10; Page 298 Under Pathology.

The only forms that show Clinical signs are Cutaneous (dry pox) and dphtheritic (wet pox).

I don't know if this is a generic description or specific to Poultry Pox. I can
say that the cutaneous form in Pigeon Pox has the ability to produce boils in the skin which may burst and become brittle and blackish in color. If they don't
fall off once the virus has run it's course, they can become carcenogenic and
require surgical removal. So in this instance, there is a cross-over between
cutaneous and oncological symptoms...

fp

[alhowiriny]

Originally Posted by feralpigeon

I don't know if this is a generic description or specific to Poultry Pox.

The chapter is focused on Fowl Pox (FPV) specificly and Avain Pox (APV) in general.

After further reading, the systemic/septicemic form is only seen in canaries, finches & rarely in neopsittacus sp. and i could not find any source that state or report it occurred in other APV, And the oncogenic form is an arguable subject. [For More see Sources at the bottom of this post]

"...Septicemic infections are most common in canaries and canary and finch crosses. Canarypox frequently causes a desquamative pneumonia with occlusion of the air capillaries resulting in dyspnea..." Source: Avian Medicine; by Ritchie & Harrison [Page 872]

The septicemic form happens after the wet form and rarely after the dry form (the birds show multiple signs of illness including fluffed feathers, loss of appetite, and lethargy. they develop pneumonia, with resulting cyanosis lasting 3~4 days before death). [For More see Sources at the bottom of this post]

"..Severe diseases by Avipoxvirus occur only if the infection takes a two-cycle course. In the mucosal form of the disease, the virus targets the mucosa of the beak cavity, pharynx, larynx, and, rarely, lower respiratory epithelia. Clinical signs usually appear during generalization of the disease process following the second episode of viremia. The septicemic form of avian poxvirus infection is characterized by death of the birds during the second viremia." http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/ivcvm/199...ch02/index.php

Originally Posted by feralpigeon

I can
say that the cutaneous form in Pigeon Pox has the ability to produce boils in the skin which may burst and become brittle and blackish in color. If they don't
fall off once the virus has run it's course, they can become carcenogenic and
require surgical removal. So in this instance, there is a cross-over between
cutaneous and oncological symptoms...

True;
"Tumors : Some Avipoxvirus strains have oncogenic properties. Passeriformes and Columbiformes that survive infections are prone to tumor formation. These rapidly growing, wart-like efflorescent tumors of the skin are generally void of normal epithelium and hemorrhage readily when disturbed. Bollinger bodies are usually present in the neoplastic tissue but viable virus may not be demonstrated. Surgical removal of the skin tumors is an effective therapy.

.. It has been suggested but not proven that the massive cellular proliferation of interstitial mesenchyme induced by the virus can cause neoplastic changes. Postmortem lesions in affected canaries include small pneumonic foci and hemorrhages, as well as fatty liver degeneration and jejunitis." Source: Avian Medicine; by Ritchie & Harrison [Page 872]

________________________________
Sources :
Avian medicine; by Jaime Samour [Page 197 & 268]
Avian Medicine; by Ritchie & Harrison [Page 872]
Pathology of pet and aviary birds; by Robert Eugene Schmidt, Drury R. Reavill, David N. Phalen [Page 137]
Diseases of Canaries; by Robert Stroud [Page 103-104]
http://www.wildlifecenter.org/wp/avian-poxvirus/
http://www.peteducation.com/article....+1829&aid=2743
http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/ivcvm/199...ch02/index.php

[alhowiriny]

Apology to the original poster, No intention to shift or hijack this thread. Only trying to enrich the subject.

[altgirl35]

i usually go 10 days with the flagyl, and i keep poxy guys on baytril until all lesions are gone, i also dab lesions once a day with diluted betadine to help dry them up. dont get into the eyes.
also after a 3-4 days on the flagyl, i very gently rub the mouth and throat with diluted betadine and q-tips once a day, be very careful, if you see blood stop, it's hurts them but helps speed up recovery

[feralpigeon]

alhowiriny, I wasn't inclined to give a separate category to oncogenic pox, mainly because it originates in one of the other categories.

As for your statement regarding septicemic pox being ".... only seen in canaries, finches & rarely in neopsittacus sp. and i could not find any source that state or report it occurred in other APV.", after giving a citation that states ""...Septicemic infections are most common in canaries and canary and finch crosses.", what can I say, the quoted statement doesn't support your conclusion.

Yes, Pigeon Pox can and does move into the respiratory system in an apparent 2nd stage of viral activity, though it can as well enter the blood stream at any time during the viral infection and colonize one or more organs. This is a microbial behavior that Pigeon Pox shares w/other diseases
that pigeons can contract.

fp

[feralpigeon]

I was expressly told by Dr. Speer not to have a pigeon pox rescue on Baytril,
but to instead keep the affected areas clean and dry through topical care. Some conditions are treated w/Metronidazole for longer courses of time, though Trichomonas is generally speaking a 5-7 day treatment. I sincerely doubt that the damage to the tissue is strictly from Trichomonas, but rather a combination of canker and pox.

Betadine around the beak area would be a good idea. Boosting the bird's own immune system and supporting or assisting in feeding is likewise essential for the bird's system to be able to heal the damaged tissue. I hope this bird doesn't lose that lower beak.

fp

[alhowiriny]

After further reading, the systemic/septicemic form is only seen in canaries, finches & rarely in neopsittacus sp. and i could not find any source that state or report it occurred in other APV.
.....
Septicemic infections are most common in canaries and canary and finch crosses

*sigh* its obviously from my post i meant its only reported in canaries/finches & rarely in neopsittacus sp. and I never found a source reporting it occured in other birds; I didn't conclude anything I reported my reading/results. All the books i've searched mentioned canaries/finchs. I couldn't find any source that state this's a generalized form of avain pox virus.

For example, only certain strains of the avain pox virus show tumors. So the question now, Does septicemic infection occurs with all strains of avipoxvirns or is it specific to certain strains? A reference would be appreciated.

[overwelmedd]

Just wanted to update you all on his progress so far. I've been giving the Flagyl since Saturday afternoon. I can not believe how much better he looks already He is definately not healed yet and pox still has him all deformed, BUT! his lower beak has cleared alot . Prior to Flagyl his lower beak was so full that his little tongue only had a trough to sit in. Now it has more room to function. He is going to have a problem with the beak later on. The tip of it has cracked but is still holding on. Thanks to everyone for your assistance, support and guidance. I will give another update later.

Gina + Beau

[altgirl35]

that's so good to hear, he must be feeling so much better also, poor little cutie pie.
i wonder if you can reinforce that beak with anything while he heals up, maybe it will help it stay properly placed.
r maybe a tiny bit of 5 minute epoxy , you have to hold him till it's done curing and do it very carefully as to not get it in his mouth or on his feathers, it would eventually come off
wonder if anyone else has tried anything like that.
its what we do for cracked turtles cept we use fiberglass tape with it.