Update/second opinion Beau the dove

[feralpigeon]

alhowiriny, I wasn't inclined to give a separate category to oncogenic pox, mainly because it originates in one of the other categories.

As for your statement regarding septicemic pox being ".... only seen in canaries, finches & rarely in neopsittacus sp. and i could not find any source that state or report it occurred in other APV.", after giving a citation that states ""...Septicemic infections are most common in canaries and canary and finch crosses.", what can I say, the quoted statement doesn't support your conclusion.

Yes, Pigeon Pox can and does move into the respiratory system in an apparent 2nd stage of viral activity, though it can as well enter the blood stream at any time during the viral infection and colonize one or more organs. This is a microbial behavior that Pigeon Pox shares w/other diseases
that pigeons can contract.

fp

[feralpigeon]

I was expressly told by Dr. Speer not to have a pigeon pox rescue on Baytril,
but to instead keep the affected areas clean and dry through topical care. Some conditions are treated w/Metronidazole for longer courses of time, though Trichomonas is generally speaking a 5-7 day treatment. I sincerely doubt that the damage to the tissue is strictly from Trichomonas, but rather a combination of canker and pox.

Betadine around the beak area would be a good idea. Boosting the bird's own immune system and supporting or assisting in feeding is likewise essential for the bird's system to be able to heal the damaged tissue. I hope this bird doesn't lose that lower beak.

fp

[alhowiriny]

At least i never used insults at anyone to describe my own opinion, so i'm not sure about "diddle yourself and others" , "twist the words or twist in the wind", "useless banter", "That's the end of the tango."

You keep saying that i've denied its 'systemic/septicemic' and i keep telling you its "two-cycle course" and if this's the case then you should stop consider it (systemic/septicemic form) much like :

Originally Posted by feralpigeon

alhowiriny, I wasn't inclined to give a separate category to oncogenic pox, mainly because it originates in one of the other categories.

No need to get frustrated, If you couldn't quote me saying what you claim i've said, then stop putting words in my mouth. it wont give you a solid ground nor insults would give a good reputation.

[alhowiriny]

After further reading, the systemic/septicemic form is only seen in canaries, finches & rarely in neopsittacus sp. and i could not find any source that state or report it occurred in other APV.
.....
Septicemic infections are most common in canaries and canary and finch crosses

*sigh* its obviously from my post i meant its only reported in canaries/finches & rarely in neopsittacus sp. and I never found a source reporting it occured in other birds; I didn't conclude anything I reported my reading/results. All the books i've searched mentioned canaries/finchs. I couldn't find any source that state this's a generalized form of avain pox virus.

For example, only certain strains of the avain pox virus show tumors. So the question now, Does septicemic infection occurs with all strains of avipoxvirns or is it specific to certain strains? A reference would be appreciated.

[feralpigeon]

After typing many excerpts from many volumes of medical books that specifically deal w/pigeons and losing the post, I am not going to do it again at this time. I have Rupley's Manual of Avian Practice, Avian Medicine by Tully, Lawton and Dorrsestein, Pigeon Health and Disease by Tudor, Fit to Win by Dr. Wim Peters, Manual of Raptors, Pigeons and Waterfowl, Avian Medicine and Clinical Avian Med by Harrison & Lightfoot. There are references through out of finding poxvirus in the organs and bloodstream and systemic or septicemic pox.

A couple of well known sites for pigeon diseases both discuss pox colonizing the organs:

http://www.internationalmodenaclub.c.../diagnosis.htm

http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/tr...-pigeonpox.php

Both contain this remark:

"The general condition is impaired if the virus enters the bloodstream and colonizes the internal organs. "

From another site:

http://www.cvm.umn.edu/Academics/cou...rology/pox.htm

"Secondary target organs (spleen and liver) are infected with the subsequent development of a secondary viremia."

Studies involving the White-tailed Laurel Pigeon have found the virus in their respiratory system.

This link discusses the third form as being "Respiratory", but this is essentially the same in different terminology as other references to septicemic or systemic:

http://drexotic.com/avian_diseases.htm

It's clear from going through these volumes that there are some different terminologies describing the same aspect of the disease. The texts are written over a span of time. One does need to sift through and put the information together oneself, but it is there and I simply don't have the time to type all the quotes back into this thread from the actual textbooks.

fp

Originally Posted by alhowiriny

*sigh* its obviously from my post i meant its only reported in canaries/finches & rarely in neopsittacus sp. and I never found a source reporting it occured in other birds; I didn't conclude anything I reported my reading/results. All the books i've searched mentioned canaries/finchs. I couldn't find any source that state this's a generalized form of avain pox virus.

For example, only certain strains of the avain pox virus show tumors. So the question now, Does septicemic infection occurs with all strains of avipoxvirns or is it specific to certain strains? A reference would be appreciated.

[altgirl35]

that's so good to hear, he must be feeling so much better also, poor little cutie pie.
i wonder if you can reinforce that beak with anything while he heals up, maybe it will help it stay properly placed.
r maybe a tiny bit of 5 minute epoxy , you have to hold him till it's done curing and do it very carefully as to not get it in his mouth or on his feathers, it would eventually come off
wonder if anyone else has tried anything like that.
its what we do for cracked turtles cept we use fiberglass tape with it.

[overwelmedd]

Originally Posted by altgirl35

that's so good to hear, he must be feeling so much better also, poor little cutie pie.
i wonder if you can reinforce that beak with anything while he heals up, maybe it will help it stay properly placed.
r maybe a tiny bit of 5 minute epoxy , you have to hold him till it's done curing and do it very carefully as to not get it in his mouth or on his feathers, it would eventually come off
wonder if anyone else has tried anything like that.
its what we do for cracked turtles cept we use fiberglass tape with it.

I did consider trying to reenforce/attach beak tip with a little super glue but at this point the area is still too swollen to realign it properly. You mentioned in earlier post that you continue to "give Baytril to the poxie guys" Should I still be giving him the Baytril along with the Flagyl? Initially Vet only prescribed Baytril, Calcium and Sulfa for 2 weeks. I still have some and was already considering restarting the Calcium due to the beak tip breaking. I've been kinda afraid of getting into an overmedicated toxic situation.

Gina

[alhowiriny]

After 2 weeks of baytril you want to rebuild the birds immune system.. probiotic/vitamins/ACV would be helpful.

[alhowiriny]

feralpigeon,

Your last post confirm my results. I've clearly stated this :

After further reading, the systemic/septicemic form is only seen ( = reported) in canaries, finches & rarely in neopsittacus sp. and i could not find any source that state or report it occurred in other APV

And i've add apparently the so called "systemic/septicemic" in other APV happens in two-cycle course & as a respiratory infection after the wet form (which differ from the septicemic infection of CnPV "CanaryPox Virus"):

"..Severe diseases by Avipoxvirus occur only if the infection takes a two-cycle course. In the mucosal form of the disease, the virus targets the mucosa of the beak cavity, pharynx, larynx, and, rarely, lower respiratory epithelia. Clinical signs usually appear during generalization of the disease process following the second episode of viremia. The septicemic form of avian poxvirus infection is characterized by death of the birds during the second viremia."

Here's your own post/reply to that (which contradict it):

Originally Posted by feralpigeon

Yes, Pigeon Pox can and does move into the respiratory system in an apparent 2nd stage of viral activity, though it can as well enter the blood stream at any time during the viral infection and colonize one or more organs. This is a microbial behavior that Pigeon Pox shares w/other diseases that pigeons can contract.

So your post clearly state that the respiratory form differ from the septicemic form. And then you contradict your own post when you stated this (which btw confirm my results):

Originally Posted by feralpigeon

This link discusses the third form as being "Respiratory", but this is essentially the same in different terminology as other references to septicemic or systemic:

Just a question, in your opinion why didn't the first two sites you've provided categorized the "bloodstream infection" as a third form? and why Ritchie&Harrison didn't do the same in their book (under Columbiforms; Chapter 44) but they clearly stated the third form (under Passeriforms; Chapter 43)? And the same thing with Merck veterinary manual ?

You have quoted from this site (http://www.cvm.umn.edu) right? download from the same site "this file" and go to slide 19 under Clinical signs you would find what i've attached, in your opinion why?


When I posted my reading/results i was expecting positive response from you.. maybe something like (Great, i'll check the sources [with page numbers] you've provided.. thank you) instead i get something like this:

Originally Posted by feralpigeon

what can I say, the quoted statement doesn't support your conclusion.

[feralpigeon]

Originally Posted by overwelmedd

I did consider trying to reenforce/attach beak tip with a little super glue but at this point the area is still too swollen to realign it properly. You mentioned in earlier post that you continue to "give Baytril to the poxie guys" Should I still be giving him the Baytril along with the Flagyl? Initially Vet only prescribed Baytril, Calcium and Sulfa for 2 weeks. I still have some and was already considering restarting the Calcium due to the beak tip breaking. I've been kinda afraid of getting into an overmedicated toxic situation.

Gina

Gina, Baytril and Calcium should never be given together. Baytril will bind w/calcium rendering it useless in its' capacity as an antibiotic therapeutic agent. Metronidazole has a drying effect and while you want to move the
canker out (again the norm is 5-7 days) you want to do so without radically drying the area too quickly by high dosing or extended medication periods. You would also worry about a bird whose immune system is this compromised developing a fungal infection from too many antibiotics and a weakened immune system under attack from the virus.

Dr. Speer whom I mentioned before is a world class avian vet who is licensed to practice in Europe and the United States. He's considered one of the top
avian surgeons/vets in the US and yes, he helped me w/a feral pigeon w/pox.
I went to him w/the bird on Baytril, and stopped the Baytril after the appointment. The pij recovered well and essentially needed the supportive care more than anything else. He recommended topically cleansing the affected areas and supporting the bird w/high protein to help w/the tissue rebuilding. If you are using Kaytee Exact, probiotics are included in the formulation, so your dove is already receiving probiotics.

If the beak is too inflamed to align it w/superglue, would paper-taping it work in the meantime? Paper tape is used on skin and considered very gentle.

fp

[overwelmedd]

Originally Posted by feralpigeon

Gina, Baytril and Calcium should never be given together. Baytril will bind w/calcium rendering it useless in its' capacity as an antibiotic therapeutic agent. Metronidazole has a drying effect and while you want to move the
canker out (again the norm is 5-7 days) you want to do so without radically drying the area too quickly by high dosing or extended medication periods. You would also worry about a bird whose immune system is this compromised developing a fungal infection from too many antibiotics and a weakened immune system under attack from the virus.

Dr. Speer whom I mentioned before is a world class avian vet who is licensed to practice in Europe and the United States. He's considered one of the top
avian surgeons/vets in the US and yes, he helped me w/a feral pigeon w/pox.
I went to him w/the bird on Baytril, and stopped the Baytril after the appointment. The pij recovered well and essentially needed the supportive care more than anything else. He recommended topically cleansing the affected areas and supporting the bird w/high protein to help w/the tissue rebuilding. If you are using Kaytee Exact, probiotics are included in the formulation, so your dove is already receiving probiotics.

If the beak is too inflamed to align it w/superglue, would paper-taping it work in the meantime? Paper tape is used on skin and considered very gentle.

fp

You just gave me another reason to doubt the "avian vet" that I took Beau to intially She is the one that prescribed Baytril, Calcium and Sulfa to be given all at same time.

The beak tip has stabalized at the moment. Pox lesion on side of beak has dried enough to harden the area, at least temporarily. I am going to leave it alone for now and be very careful not to put any pressure on it during feeding. I'd rather not try putting any tape on the beak. He still has his appetite and I'm afraid putting anything "funny feeling" on it would turn him away from food.

Gina

[alhowiriny]

In birds kept inside (away from the sun); You want to give vitamin D along with magnesium/phosphorus, the calcium bioavailability (absorption) will be limited if there's vitamin D/magnesium deficiency.

[plamenh]

Beak will grow and mend with time. Vitamins A and E stimulate growth.

[feralpigeon]

I think you might be able to reinforce the cracked tip for now w/super glue. Works well w/toenails, I use it on nails that develop an inconvenient rip. I'm glad the dove is doing better, I know it must be feeling whole lot better as well.
Thanks for the update and please do keep us posted. If you have time when
you are through w/the course of meds, it would be great to see some pictures.

fp

[overwelmedd]

Huge ugly pox on side of Beau's head finally dried and fell off. He doesn't look like Frankenbird anymore. I'll post a new picture soon.

Gina