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Bella Bella is offline
Posted 29th September 2010, 07:32 AM
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New York State
Posts: 163
Jay3, I wish there was an avian vet for my use, but there just isn't. This is a rural farming community - even our "cities" do not have an avian vet. I am blessed in that my vet that we take our dogs to regularly at least has offered me her advice on this issue.
When I went to buy penicillin I mentioned the reason to the clerk at the farm store and one of the warehouse guys actually snorted and said "So just don't eat that part!"
I guess having a "pet" Turkey is out of the norm...and trying to nurse an injured pet Turkey back to health is hilarious to most...

Thanks guys for the honey suggestion - we are going to give it a go. My boyfriend works at a restaurant that specializes in natural and all organic cuisine - so high quality honey is in good supply for us!

Dobato, the penicillin is 300,000 units per ml. She weighs about 12.5 lbs. I was told to give her a 1/2ml yesterday and a 1/4 ml there on out for 5 to 7 days - to make a call on day 5 whether she could use the extra 2 days depending on how everything looked.

We have not cleaned her wound since the first time - it is staying very clean as I have her bedded on newspaper and a blanket. I'd like to give her shavings as her droppings are pure liquid at the moment, and they would be more absorbent. But then I would risk them getting into the wounds and causing problems. So we have just been changing out her papers and rotating her blanket through the wash 3x per day in an effort to keep her environment dry and clean.

I must say she is one perky turkey today. I noticed yesterday that her head felt quite warm - not burning up, but certainly above proper body temp. Her temp feels normal today.

She is up and walking around - eating, clucking, and holding her wings tightly and in their normal position. She's still pretty sore, that one deep muscle wound is right where the left leg muscles wrap back over the hind quarters of the bird. Consequently, she posts that leg a bit forward when she comes to stand at rest and then slowly slides it back underneath her to line it up perfectly straight with the other leg.

Her droppings though are terrible, I suppose that's to be expected though. She is drinking alot of water - and her droppings are white pools with some food matter in them. This is kind of worrying me that she may become too dehydrated.

Should I give her some probios in her water? Will that even be effective at all being that she is on penicillin?
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Bella Bella is offline
Posted 29th September 2010, 07:51 AM
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New York State
Posts: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdpbison View Post
Hi Bella,



I have read some really good reports about the use of Honey also.


Normally I use the Silversulfadiazine Ointment on things in this Ball Park, but, I intend to try Honey next time I get one in.


Best if the entire Wound can be kept moist and soft and supple, as well as reasonbably clean/sterile.

She's probably a pretty robust little girl and will get through this just fine.

If you wanted to up her offerings of fresh Greens and ripe Fruits, all the better.


Cilantro is a good one...and minced ripe Apples also.


Does she like Canned Sardines?


Be very good for her if she does.



Good luck!


Phil
Lv
She likes anything we give her pretty much...we just collect a bucket of our own food waste (all fruits and veggies, breads and whatnot) and give it to our chickens and turkeys each day...makes them come running whenever we call them like dogs! So she has been getting more than her fair share of that for the past few days.

I never thought to try sardines, but I'll pick them up for her and see what she thinks...I know I won't eat them!

So far the antibiotic ointment has kept the wounds very moist and pliable and I am going through alot of it (4 tubes in 3 days so far!).

Thank you for the encouragement. She has never once looked like she wasn't going to make it, which gives me hope. The wounds are hard to look at - but just not life threatening as far as I can tell...there's no real bleeding, no bones broken, no cavity punctures, and all the plumbing works. Provided we can avoid infection we are really dealing with mostly tissue and some muscle damage. But I have to admit, at this point I've been told that the bird should be shot more than once and by more than one person. But I just can't do such a thing...not after she's made it this long and generally speaking, looks so good for what happened to her.

It's nice to have someone tell me that I am right to help her fight!
spirit wings spirit wings is offline
Posted 29th September 2010, 08:15 AM
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 20,303
This is great news and way to go Waynette and jay3 for the honey/sugar info...so interesting!.. so glad the turkey is doing good... she is so sweet.... love turkeys..
 
Dobato Dobato is offline
Posted 29th September 2010, 08:16 AM
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,445
Glad she is up and acting mostly normal. Bella, the dosing for the Penicillin sounds correct. However, you will have two issues, one is the at the Penicillin should deal with preventing a possible Pasturella Multocida infection from the dog bite and cover for some issues with possible soft tissue infections. But it would be good to keep an an on the wound site for any signs that a soft tissue infection is developing, such as redness/further swelling, as there is the possibility that bacteria could have been introduced from the bite that are not sensitive to Penicillin and she should then be moved to Baytril, 10mg/kg q24hr (once every 24 hours), either oral or injectable, for 7 days and reassessed.

As I mentioned Bella, this bird, with good wound management should heal up just fine and in time you will not really know she was wounded like this.

Since she is on IM Penicillin, she could get some probiotics in her food, but if you move to oral meds, hold off until she is finished her course of meds.

Karyn
Bella Bella is offline
Posted 29th September 2010, 09:34 AM
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New York State
Posts: 163
Thanks SpiritWings! I am very happy with how she looks today, and for the moment, somewhat relieved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobato View Post
Glad she is up and acting mostly normal. Bella, the dosing for the Penicillin sounds correct. However, you will have two issues, one is the at the Penicillin should deal with preventing a possible Pasturella Multocida infection from the dog bite and cover for some issues with possible soft tissue infections. But it would be good to keep an an on the wound site for any signs that a soft tissue infection is developing, such as redness/further swelling, as there is the possibility that bacteria could have been introduced from the bite that are not sensitive to Penicillin and she should then be moved to Baytril, 10mg/kg q24hr (once every 24 hours), either oral or injectable, for 7 days and reassessed.

As I mentioned Bella, this bird, with good wound management should heal up just fine and in time you will not really know she was wounded like this.

Since she is on IM Penicillin, she could get some probiotics in her food, but if you move to oral meds, hold off until she is finished her course of meds.

Karyn
Thanks Karyn. So far there doesn't seem to be much swelling at all, if any. Everything seems rather uniform. The amount of bruising makes it very difficult to assess whether or not there is any redness, but I suppose we do see any infection it will be pretty obvious that it has changed.

Yesterday, and again today - she has removed a piece of dead tissue. Rather good sized pieces. Yesterdays was a strip about 2" long - I'm not even sure which laceration it dropped off of. Today she removed a piece about the size of a fifty cent piece from beneath her tail. These were pieces that really had no hope of healing, and she seems to be causing no new damage by doing this, nothing is bleeding anew. Is this okay? Or would it be better to stop her from doing this?
She doesn't seem to be obsessive about it but does preen the wound occasionally, and gently.

Where can I get baytril?? It is one of the very few things I do not have in my medicinal inventory because I've never been able to find it whenever I put together an order.
Whether she ends up using it or not, I would like to have it on hand.

I'll start giving her some probios today - hopefully it will help some.

Well - here she is today. My tough little Turkey. She was a bit dirty for the pics, got her all cleaned up again. It's a battle to keep her underside clean with her droppings the way they are!



Thanks for all the advice everyone.
spirit wings spirit wings is offline
Posted 29th September 2010, 09:58 AM
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 20,303
you can get liquid baytril here, http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newpr...s/baytril.html

Last edited by spirit wings; 29th September 2010 at 10:35 AM..
Msfreebird's Avatar
Msfreebird Msfreebird is offline
Posted 29th September 2010, 12:09 PM
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Location: Southern Maine Seacoast, USA
Posts: 5,525
Oh, what a sweetie!
The honey/sugar paste is applied and left on. And re-apply as needed. It kills bacteria also so there is no need to use any other ointments with it.
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Waynette

http://cottageontheseacoastloft.weebly.com/index.html
"In Solitude there is Strength, In Strength there is Spirit"
Bella Bella is offline
Posted 29th September 2010, 12:53 PM
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New York State
Posts: 163
Thanks for the link SpiritWings, I'll order some now!

Thanks MsFreebird! I'll keep you guys updated on her progress and how the honey and sugar treatment works out for her!
pigeonmama's Avatar
pigeonmama pigeonmama is offline
Posted 29th September 2010, 02:15 PM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,140
I honestly would not apply anything to keep area moist. I'm a great believer in "clean and dry". The areas where flesh is missing will fill back in, starting around the edges, and healing toward the center. Will take time, this is extensive.
Daryl
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Msfreebird Msfreebird is offline
Posted 29th September 2010, 02:58 PM
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Location: Southern Maine Seacoast, USA
Posts: 5,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by pigeonmama View Post
I honestly would not apply anything to keep area moist. I'm a great believer in "clean and dry". The areas where flesh is missing will fill back in, starting around the edges, and healing toward the center. Will take time, this is extensive.
Daryl
That is what the honey/sugar paste does.......

Quote:
* Honey's antibacterial quality not only rapidly clears existing infection, it protects wounds from additional infection
* Honey debrides wounds and removes malodor
* Honey's anti-inflammatory activity reduces edema and minimizes scarring
* Honey stimulates growth of granulation and epithelial tissues to speed healing
The sugar mixed with the honey will help it to harden forming a barrier while its working to heal it.
I've seen the results on hens and roosters.....its incredible how it works!
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Waynette

http://cottageontheseacoastloft.weebly.com/index.html
"In Solitude there is Strength, In Strength there is Spirit"
Dobato Dobato is offline
Posted 29th September 2010, 04:43 PM
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,445
Bella, here is another link for another source of Baytril (Enrofloxacin, from Siegel's Pigeon Supplies), they are in pill for about half way down the page.

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-paratyphoid.html

Bella, most animals have good instincts and your bird removing non viable pieces that are hanging is natural for her. She would be better off if you got a sharp pair of scissors and trimmed of any other hanging pieces, as she may end up damaging viable tissue, with her attempts to pull the dead areas away.

Please read this PDF on managing wounds in animals, you will find it helpful, please continue doing what you are doing, and IMHO, better to keep the wound moist as it will speed healing, as laid out in the PDF, but she is your bird and you can decide what you think is best.

Others will be pleased to see it mentions honey to keep things moist.

http://www.nwrc.com.au/forms/anne_fowler_1.pdf


Karyn
pdpbison's Avatar
pdpbison pdpbison is offline
Posted 30th September 2010, 12:39 AM
Join Date: Mar 2005
Country: United States
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada - U.S.A.
Posts: 10,369
Hi Bella,


I have never had a Turkey to care for, but I did have a young Duck for a while, and, she, and every Song Bird, and my lovely Bantam Hen 'Persephone' and a few Kestrals, all loved Canned Sardines and palitable tender Sea Weeds.


Nothing like a Baby Sparrow gaping for her next bite, and getting that nice waft of Sardines coming from their little gullet.

Lol...


Seriously though, what is nice about Sardines, is that aside from the head and fins being gone, the rest is still there - skin, scales, spine and so on. All very Nutritious.

Any Omnivore or Carnivore Birds will benifit from the Omega 3 Oils and Acids of Ocean Fish...and, for that matter, Canned Cod Livers are also very good, if hard to find anymore.


Dried tiny Shrimp and dried tiny size whole Anchovies are also really good for any Omnivores, Avian or otherwise, and can be had easily at any Asian Market, or, I am sure, over the Internet, and the same with the Sea Weeds people eat.


Seaweeds and Ocean Fish also contain forms of Iodine which are very valuable for Birds or anyone Omnivore else.


Iodine in these natural forms nurtures the Thyroid, which regulates the endocrine and adrenal and other systems, also effecting the Immune System in various ways, and on down from there...so, well worth doing.


Her face looks a lot like 'Persephone'.


Poops can get messy from stress alone...

Meds also can effect the poops of course.


Since she is by herself now, for her get well time, you can spoil her rotten with any special foods you like..!



Phil
Lv

Last edited by pdpbison; 30th September 2010 at 12:44 AM..
Bella Bella is offline
Posted 1st October 2010, 08:13 AM
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New York State
Posts: 163

Notable Improvement


Well, it is day 5 after her injury, and she is steadily improving each day.

We have lost more dead tissue, mostly on the left side in the deepest wound that penetrated into the muscle. But what has remained is very healthy looking, right to the very edges. I did trim some off myself, and she has continues to take a bit more off to her liking - none of which caused anymore bleeding or loss of what at this point appears to be good tissue.

The bruising has started to dissipate, and the tissue in areas I really couldn't evaluate before looks fantastic...healthy - flesh colored, no redness, and no swelling. I am still dressing her with antibiotic ointment. The first few days and even yesterday it was very tender to her and she was flinching when I put the ointment on each time. Today she seems to have very little pain - didn't really flinch at all. It almost seemed like it felt good to her.

With probios added her droppings are much improved. They are still not as solid as they would normally be, but gone are the pools of urates with bits of food matter - her poop looks like bird poop again and keeping her clean is getting easier.

Today is her fifth day of penicillin. We are going to go ahead and give her two more days on it and then let her off for a week and keep an eye on things. Baytril should arrive here tomorrow, or perhaps later on today and if it does become necessary to switch to that we will have it close at hand.

Her spirits are up, she seems quite happy and getting used to the routine. Her appetite has remained good and she is taking in plenty of water. Her mobility is improving. Today she walks with a good limp, but is placing her feet and tracking relatively normal. She is spending more time up today than she has in previous days.
I keep opening her window in her room. She is talking alot and her mate, spends most of his time outside near that window and they are talking to each other. I know they'd be thrilled to see each other but I can't risk putting them together knowing that our male would probably try to "doctor" her in his own way. But at least they know now that the other bird is still around.

We have at this point held off on trying the honey. The more we read into it, the more it seemed like that not all honey is created equal. Since our honey is local, and not processed were not sure if it would be the best thing use at this point, when the ointment seems to be yielding good results. But it's here and if we run into trouble after discontinuing penicillin - it will be the next step, as at that point we will not have much to lose.

At first I thought that these pics looked worse than the first - but after a side by side comparison I feel that there has actually been improvement.








Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobato View Post
Bella, here is another link for another source of Baytril (Enrofloxacin, from Siegel's Pigeon Supplies), they are in pill for about half way down the page.

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-paratyphoid.html

Bella, most animals have good instincts and your bird removing non viable pieces that are hanging is natural for her. She would be better off if you got a sharp pair of scissors and trimmed of any other hanging pieces, as she may end up damaging viable tissue, with her attempts to pull the dead areas away.

Please read this PDF on managing wounds in animals, you will find it helpful, please continue doing what you are doing, and IMHO, better to keep the wound moist as it will speed healing, as laid out in the PDF, but she is your bird and you can decide what you think is best.

Others will be pleased to see it mentions honey to keep things moist.

http://www.nwrc.com.au/forms/anne_fowler_1.pdf


Karyn
Thank you for even more valuable resource links Karen - has helped me alot!
Bella Bella is offline
Posted 1st October 2010, 08:26 AM
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New York State
Posts: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdpbison View Post
Hi Bella,


I have never had a Turkey to care for, but I did have a young Duck for a while, and, she, and every Song Bird, and my lovely Bantam Hen 'Persephone' and a few Kestrals, all loved Canned Sardines and palitable tender Sea Weeds.


Nothing like a Baby Sparrow gaping for her next bite, and getting that nice waft of Sardines coming from their little gullet.

Lol...


Seriously though, what is nice about Sardines, is that aside from the head and fins being gone, the rest is still there - skin, scales, spine and so on. All very Nutritious.

Any Omnivore or Carnivore Birds will benifit from the Omega 3 Oils and Acids of Ocean Fish...and, for that matter, Canned Cod Livers are also very good, if hard to find anymore.


Dried tiny Shrimp and dried tiny size whole Anchovies are also really good for any Omnivores, Avian or otherwise, and can be had easily at any Asian Market, or, I am sure, over the Internet, and the same with the Sea Weeds people eat.


Seaweeds and Ocean Fish also contain forms of Iodine which are very valuable for Birds or anyone Omnivore else.


Iodine in these natural forms nurtures the Thyroid, which regulates the endocrine and adrenal and other systems, also effecting the Immune System in various ways, and on down from there...so, well worth doing.


Her face looks a lot like 'Persephone'.


Poops can get messy from stress alone...

Meds also can effect the poops of course.


Since she is by herself now, for her get well time, you can spoil her rotten with any special foods you like..!



Phil
Lv
It would seem that she prefers her fruits and veggies....she's giving me an awful dirty look when I try to offer her sardines! Seems we have a vegetarian turkey here...but thank you for the thought...it was definitely worth trying!
Dobato Dobato is offline
Posted 2nd October 2010, 07:57 AM
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,445
Bella, glad to hear she is feeling a little better each day and her appetite has remained intact. Since she is healing well with the ointment, I would continue with it, as you say you wish to do. I would be inclined, until we see some granulation starting to take place, to keep her on the Penicillin for 10-12 days, instead of the 7 you mention. Penicillin, of all the antibiotics we use on our birds, probably has the safest drug profile and there will be no harm to her in extending her course on them, to be safe.

Karyn
 

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