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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 24th May 2005, 05:37 PM
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 5,367
Ellen,

You are being a bit modest. Fred Smeltzer is a legend in the United Pigeon Combine, here is South Centra Pa. If I understood you correctly, and you own a direct daughter of 720, then you own a very special pigeon indeed.

The birds you mention in the family tree, are a who's who of racing pigeons. They are some of the best Janssens ever imported into this country. Mike Ganus and Fred Smeltzer must have been closely sharing notes, and birds.
I made a short visit to Fred's loft, to pick up a bird once, and he has some collection.

Story is when Fred flew in the UPC combine, 100+ lofts and thousands of birds, he would win 1st and 2nd combine, week after week after week. Some guys quit, rather then face his birds in a race again. Guys still shake in their boots !!! at the mention of his name !!

Personally, I would be breeding that bird back to some outstanding sons. And then to her grand son's, but that is me.
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relofts relofts is offline
Posted 24th May 2005, 05:54 PM
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Tulare CA USA
Posts: 515
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Warren,

Yes what I have from Fred is exceptional blood lines and the cock has been bred to most every hen in my loft including daughters as has the hen been bred back and I also purchased a sister to him and a half brother to him, the hen that I spoke of is also in that same statistic and has proven her self with many cocks. We were luck and I feel Fred is an exceptional breeder as well as handler and he is a honest breeder, he spoke highly of the family, he prooved the family and then we had him send some of them to us, and I feel he provided us with some of his what I feel to be best of the best, we have had them since youngsters 1999 and wouldn't hesitate to compete them at any level or distance.

By the way I was trying to be careful with my words here, I am not trying to make people think I am running an add and get myself in trouble, and just so all know I am not related, nor do I receive anything for the comments I have made, I am speaking from my personal experience, I am very cautious about saying to much to cause some to think I am trying to sell someones birds as you can tell, been there done that.

Ellen

Last edited by relofts; 24th May 2005 at 05:58 PM..
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 24th May 2005, 09:03 PM
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: enid okla
Posts: 4,198
Smile

Sometimes it good when you find a hen and cock that really click to remate them over and over. And build off there young birds. Then spread the line that way. And i noticed the story about people dropping from the races. to avoid the let down of a loss/, Thats what happens when you have done the work. bred them right. People shy away and try to figure ways to not race aginst there stiif competitors. To the point of banning them from the clubs. Which is sad But true. And Ellen I have long sence Study family lines. Have been impressed on the janssen line. They have helped many a flyer trhu out the world build a foundation line of winners. And there birds were not pushed for the first 2 years of age. But brought up slowly to mature into great flyers. And as proven they can go the distance the 600 miler. Just the brothers chose not to push there birds. But did show the world that they are not just short to mid distance winners. they can fly all distances well. And most all top line family birds can do the same. Because someone took that time to build along some kind of line. taken well care of some birds can breed for 12 to 15 years in homers. So testing and breeding still has time to build a line. Your on your way from waht I have read. And whats good YOU help others. A plus there. You to Warren. I know you have started poeple out right too.
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relofts relofts is offline
Posted 24th May 2005, 09:27 PM
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Tulare CA USA
Posts: 515
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Re Lee,

Yes the Janssen brothers flew their birds out to the distant with their Strains, I flew mine out to the 650 last old birds and took in the combine 1st and 3rd, the sire of the first place was my Witoger 720 line, and the Dam was down from a Strawberry Janssen hen imported to Canada by Clwyd Lofts via Wales from the Janssen Family, this pair also bred me my Oregon State winner a couple of years ago as well.

My 3rd place in the combine winner for the same race was down from a half brother to the one above with the Sire GFL 25 and Witoger 720 line and the Dam was purchased from Horst Hackamer some years back she is a Mottled recessive hen with Green eyes and is Meuleman down from Bismarck, Alice, and Grant another good blood line I think.

Ellen
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whitesnmore whitesnmore is offline
Posted 26th May 2005, 03:11 PM
Join Date: Sep 2004
Country: United States
Location: Chicagoland area
Posts: 628

Family Lines


If I can jump in for a second, I am a new flyer this year and have started with 2 family lines. One out of a very sucessful loft in Texas and one out of another sucessful loft in PA. Since I have my first race in August should these families be treated as separate lines for breeding for the long haul and breed only best to best or if the basket shows that both families have good enough racers should I cross into each other in a couple to see what it produces? All of these breeders have good records or come from very good bloodlines if this helps.
Ken
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relofts relofts is offline
Posted 26th May 2005, 03:26 PM
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Tulare CA USA
Posts: 515
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Ken,

It is good to see you on here again, sorry I have not emailed you lately, I kind of got busy there for a while and now am trying to get back into the swing of things.

Regarding your questions, it depends on the breed of pigeon, the distances they excel at, the type of races they fly at, and what you are looking to get from your team.

Short to Short or Speed to Speed - Will most likely develope a speed bird, they work great in blow homes and such.

Short speed to long durability - Will most likely develope a middle distant bird for you.

Long durability to - Long Durability - Will most likely develop a long durability bird that is consistant in it's speed.

Now this is not always true, sometime the youngsters will take on trait or another and sometimes neither, if you know all your races are going to be speed and blow homes you want to breed for the type and size of the bird to be able to fly the race they will fly. If you are flying hard head wind races with possible weather involved you are going to want to breed for a more muscle, consistant, and durable bird. It is usually best to prove the family in your area that they can fly the course and then think about crossing out to develope what you are looking for, sometimes there are people in the area that will help you to grade your pigeons for the area you are flying and it is good to get the suggestions, make sure that it is a loft that competes well and the person has been doing it for some years. There is always those times that none of this works and the birds just don't do well for you, you need to find a family that works well with your conditioning plans.

Ellen

Ps. Hope all is going well there with everything, let us know when you get a chance how your son is enjoying the club and all.
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whitesnmore whitesnmore is offline
Posted 26th May 2005, 07:48 PM
Join Date: Sep 2004
Country: United States
Location: Chicagoland area
Posts: 628
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New Club Findings


Ellen,

Good Talking with you again. Alot has transpired since we talked last. Last week we had our club auction for our 250 mile YB race in Sept. I managed to get one of mine back but the other went for too much money. I did manage to aquire a Horst Hackmeyer Bird since he used to fly in our club before going to Florida. Very nice Yb and a hen I believe. Dylan is excited about our move this weekend as we will be moving all the birds and building a new loft from ground up. He doesnt usually get to help with the hammer and nailing around the house but I have made an exception for the loft as I dont think the pigeons will care if something is off a bit. The birds have been on lock down and will get their first taste of freedom 7-10 days after the loft is up. Then the training program will be slowly implimented. Plan to let the younger ones out first in hopes the older ones will follow suit and not get as many fly aways. I would have held up on the breeding if I had known the closing was going to be this late but it was pushed back at the last minute. Our club flies a South/SoutWest course and vary from 100-500 miles with alot of 300-500 races. I have 2 families and one is the Sprinters and the others excell at the 250-350 mile range. By crossing these families do I take a chance of slowing the sprinters down more than increasing the speed in the others? Would I best be served in waiting until this seasons race sheets are completed to determine what options I may have? If it seems I am anxious it is because this is true. I wish I could speed everything up and look into the future to see how all the different matings will come out Patience was never one of my strong points. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.
Ken
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 26th May 2005, 08:26 PM
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 5,367

Parental Lines


Hello K & D,

As with everything else concerning pigeons, you will find all kinds of ideals and advice. I will throw my little two cents into the pot, and perhaps after awhile, you may have enough two cents to buy a cup of coffee.

If it were me, and I was starting out fresh with two different family lines, and a first season coming up, I would follow this line of thinking.

Fly the offspring from these two lines, and keep good detailed records. Winning is always fun, but in reality, in your first year, I would focus on how the different birds compete againest other birds in my own loft.

In other words, the measuring stick I would use, is the other birds in my own loft, and not so much the birds in the other lofts. If you have a particular bird for instance, that is always your first bird home, but he ends up ranking in the bottom half of the race sheet, then don't despair. Your loft management, training, or something else could be to blame.

After the race season is over, your results and records, should speak for themselves. The cream of your 2005 race team, you will have to take a long hard look at. Only then, will you know what options you have to consider. Selecting birds for pairing, is a paper excersize, but don't neglect what your eyes tell you.

Without seeing the final product, there may not be a real easy answer. My inclination would be to keep the lines seperate for a long term breeding program. When these two parental lines become closely bred, then I would experiment with crossing them and test the results.

Ellen is correct, you need to test these lines, to see if they will work for you. Then you need to see if these two lines will even cross well.
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whitesnmore whitesnmore is offline
Posted 27th May 2005, 07:15 AM
Join Date: Sep 2004
Country: United States
Location: Chicagoland area
Posts: 628

Hey Warren


Good Morning Sir,
Thank you for your imput. You and I have spoke on this several different occassions and it was not that I dont trust yoiur Judgement it is that I think it is always good to have other resources to glean from. I think I will probably keep both lines separate for at least the first 4-5 years before I try any crossing. I have looked at the pedigrees (I know thats only paper) but it looks like someone has crossed into the PA line at one time with the Janssens. So to some extent I feel confident that with the past out come not being negative (cause these birds seem to be very nice) it cant hurt to do it again with the right cross. My YB was one of only 4 birds (out of 30) at the club auction that brought 100.00 and the guy who bought her was very impressed with her. Talk about being a proud Grandpa Oh my this sport is way too much fun. I cant wait to meet the guy who got me started in this all. By the way Warren, Did you get all your stuff from Val????? I could not believe all the "Extras" she included in my package. Listen folks if you havent got in on this deal yet you HAVE GOT TO. Check out my post on here under Resources titled Pigeon T-Shirts. She does this all to help out injured and sick birds and is truley as Sweetheart as Warren and I can atest to.
Ken
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 27th May 2005, 08:55 AM
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: enid okla
Posts: 4,198
Take the average race Most birds start out flying together with the numbers. The less conditioned birds start to drag behind on down the road. Along with the slower flying birds. But still numbers create a drag to a point. Flight weather makes a big difference also. the rough weather birds birds to me that maintain a stronger frontal to buck the cross and head winds perfom better there. The stream lined bird. shorter winged more angled when opened will fall behind because it will not coast as well in the buck of a head or cross wind But a tail wind it it maintain the lead. But often a race is close just a few yards difference between 1 and 2 place. Hard races see a bigger distance in time of flight. As break away birds get home first not letting the group dictate the race. Less numbers changes the arc. No bird flies a direct line. But a left or right angle. And winds set the arc And the group sets the swing. Break away birds often will not arc out as far. Head winds you have the arc. And long or short distance breeding comes from All strains. You will raise birds that will perfom better at one distance then the other. Often in a money race you will see birds of both crossed to better the win. As we do not know on race day what the weather will be. Best bet is to breed towards raisin birds that have the will to get home at all costs. Because thats where the winners come from. The more the bird wants to get home the better it will. Edge as the natural or widow hood system. Birds were tricked to the egg the young bird or the hen. to want to come home faster. Young birds trained to feed think thers where they go to eat. A happy uncrowded loft drives the birds by its self. Though alot of people have stopped the single toss of there birds. This tests the homing instinct the want to get home alone Without the drag helping them find there way. And it does take more time on the toss. But seperates the the stronger willed birds. With todays computor clocks they can be used to see who came home first while you are out tossing the birds. I think this still helps the breeding program go forward By not seeing the luck birds that drag in with the lead birds then when its race time and the spread gets outs. You see them come home slower and slower.
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hillfamilyloft hillfamilyloft is offline
Posted 23rd June 2005, 01:27 AM
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Farmingon New Mexico
Posts: 3,756
You Califronia flyers will remember some midwest birds flown by a man named Victor C Miller. I hope his birds are good because that is what is in my loft. Throw in a little Engels, original Janssens, and Calia Janssens and these might be pretty good. They are a bunch faster than the old Sions, I used to fly. Love to here more suggestions on the best. Always looking to add. I do here a lot about your Ludo birds.
Randy
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relofts relofts is offline
Posted 23rd June 2005, 01:37 AM
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Tulare CA USA
Posts: 515
Randy,

It sounds as if though you have some very well known and very good blood lines, but like any pigeon flyer we seem to always be bringing in something else to try and perfect what we already have going.

Ellen
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 23rd June 2005, 06:02 PM
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 5,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillfamilyloft
You Califronia flyers will remember some midwest birds flown by a man named Victor C Miller. I hope his birds are good because that is what is in my loft. Throw in a little Engels, original Janssens, and Calia Janssens and these might be pretty good. They are a bunch faster than the old Sions, I used to fly. Love to here more suggestions on the best. Always looking to add. I do here a lot about your Ludo birds.
Randy
Hello Randy,

Ellen is correct, many flyers are always looking for that magic bullet, which will propel them to the top. The answer may already be in the loft !

Management, training, and loft position play an extremely important role. Any racing fancier worth their salt, would have to admit, that the best bloodlines in the world, in weak hands, will not fair well againest average stock, in a good loft position, and excellent loft management.

Having said that, I personally would rather have a loft full of excellent specimins from a single proven family, then a Heintz 57 approach. By that I mean, if you have a loft with a little of this, and a little of that, and you attempting to build a family around that, all I can say, is I hope you are in your 20's because, you will need 10 to 15 generations to sort it all out. I myself, chose to start with a single family where that 10 to 15 generation work has already been done.

Now, I can start from there and take this family where I wish, but to each his own.
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hillfamilyloft hillfamilyloft is offline
Posted 23rd June 2005, 11:47 PM
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Farmingon New Mexico
Posts: 3,756
I here you on the proven line. I was fortunate to aquire 12 breeders off a local futurity flyer. He won 4th Snake River Challenge and 15 Vegas Crap shoot. A nestmate to The Engels bird was 3rd on the 225 leg of the Spirit of Colorado. Seven out of the twelve are Wonder/Miller birds, two granddaughters of the Miller Cock. A brother sister team with Almost Perfect two deap in the pedigree. Out of the remainder: one is Ganus Janssen from the Janssen Brothers, one is Engels from CBS, Two are Van Reets from Frank McLaughlin and the last is a Calia Janssen. I am keeping the Miller line somewhat pure and Mixing the Van Reets up with the remaining. I am thinking of linebreeding the Millers, keeping the Van Reets for sprinters, and maybe aquiring anoter Engels. Cross a few here and there. I had to cross the Van Reets initially because they were Brothers. I am thinking of breeding Uncle to niece with these two. This is what I have to work with. I could not pass up the deal. I will try and get two or three lines going and then experiment. Let me know what you think. I am new to the strain game. Randy
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 25th June 2005, 07:35 AM
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 5,367

True Beliver


Quote:
Originally Posted by hillfamilyloft
I here you on the proven line. I was fortunate to aquire 12 breeders off a local futurity flyer. He won 4th Snake River Challenge and 15 Vegas Crap shoot. A nestmate to The Engels bird was 3rd on the 225 leg of the Spirit of Colorado. Seven out of the twelve are Wonder/Miller birds, two granddaughters of the Miller Cock. A brother sister team with Almost Perfect two deap in the pedigree. Out of the remainder: one is Ganus Janssen from the Janssen Brothers, one is Engels from CBS, Two are Van Reets from Frank McLaughlin and the last is a Calia Janssen. I am keeping the Miller line somewhat pure and Mixing the Van Reets up with the remaining. I am thinking of linebreeding the Millers, keeping the Van Reets for sprinters, and maybe aquiring anoter Engels. Cross a few here and there. I had to cross the Van Reets initially because they were Brothers. I am thinking of breeding Uncle to niece with these two. This is what I have to work with. I could not pass up the deal. I will try and get two or three lines going and then experiment. Let me know what you think. I am new to the strain game. Randy
Randy,

Start with pretty pedigrees, but then let the basket be the judge. Sooner or later, the "STARS" will emerge, those are the ones that you should focus on. Human nature will want to tell you, No this one is from my best pair !! ( Most expensive ) But, the basket rarely lies. One of the cheapest pigeons in my loft, which I paid $400 for, has produced diploma bird, after diploma bird. In my case, the basket is determining my breeding program, winners stay and the non preformers become pets for some new kid.

Believe me, it is very hard to part with a bird, you may have "invested" , many thousands for. But, winners come from winners, most of the time, and not from pretty pedigrees. Out of 12 pairs, if preformance points to 2 or 3 pairs, then replace the others with proven preformers, and you will advance light years. Winners to winners.
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