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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 27th June 2005, 09:20 PM
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Working on racers on a line .First is time. I would say It takes 3 years to see a bird thru. Why past lines somebirds perform better with age. Other Is Winners sometimes have a good young bird season but can not do the old bird as well. So as a yearling the start showing how they come in. The top performers enter the 3rd year as a true old bird. They were the best yearling performers. And then you have to check the brother sisters over all performance. As the may not have had the speed but out perfomed over all. They are the better future breeders. They can produce the future winers better. And as you have just 2 3 pair that produces the top birds build around them for the future breeders. As they have done better in raiseing More consistant birds. Todays homer has more problems then years past. More hawks more k days. solar magnetic storms. So loses sometimes relate to hawks and the sun plus weathe. So understanding flight conditions. Sets the need for hard lined birds as well the sprint and speed birds. In the breeding loft. Each family will prodauce that. so different strains is not the need if performance is recorded. In the building. I head and read And believe That if you have bred from a bird for 3 years and have not raised a bird better or as good .GET rid of it. If you have raised better birds get rid of it. MAKES good sence to me. As you have not bred a performer Or have raised better so you go forward with the better stock That you now have. I have known people that think if you just keep repairing you will find the proper mate. To get a win. Thats a waste. A good bird will show its worth within 3 years years hen or cock. The better bird will show it in 3 seasons of repairing Showing hen or cock is the producer. So its the keeper. When you hit a pair that throws top birds consider repairing To build numbers. to breed down from. As key birds once are gone. And a line is not built you loose that key. And go down hill. from there. I have seen people do this to. people wanted bird from a line they sold and sold. The key bird dies or you sell it. And then boom Its over you have to restart a program. The old saying keep the best get rid of the rest.Is a good saying to build on. In the loft birds that have won. or produced winners Stay. And this works with a 2 dollar bird as well as a 10.000 dollar bird. We start some where . Where we go is in the breeding loft. A 3 generation pedigree tells more truth then a long one. I have had peds that went back over 40 years. But What has the recent birds done, THAT my friend tell the truth. A great winner down the road in the ped means little If the others ahead of it did not get anything but a piece of paper. Buying young birds that have not been tested IS a chance, Breeders should have some kind of race record. Telling the story of what this bird has done. BUT just my 2 cents.
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agoodbird agoodbird is offline
Posted 9th July 2005, 08:19 AM
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best of best


In my own racing , the best srain i ever had was pre-war vermeyens.i also liked bastins,van riels . i now have sions , trentons & gurnays.From reading on the all time greats,it looks like renne gurnay was the best ( hannsene foundation)
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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 1st August 2005, 01:11 AM
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Are you looking for speed, medium distance or distance? I feel most bloodlines fall into one of these catigories. Some of the best speed birds I've got are down out of the famous 05 bloodlines. They are down threw his children and grandchildren; for example, the bloodlines of the Bond, famous 05 and 06, ect.

Medium distance birds, Hofkens

long distance, Wegan, black giant, trentons.

most of my birds are ether straight or crossed out of these bloodlines to perform at the distances I want their young to perform at.
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 7th August 2005, 12:28 AM
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Ludo Claessens


Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman
Are you looking for speed, medium distance or distance? I feel most bloodlines fall into one of these catigories. Some of the best speed birds I've got are down out of the famous 05 bloodlines. They are down threw his children and grandchildren; for example, the bloodlines of the Bond, famous 05 and 06, ect.

Medium distance birds, Hofkens

long distance, Wegan, black giant, trentons.

most of my birds are ether straight or crossed out of these bloodlines to perform at the distances I want their young to perform at.
I invested in a premium line of "All Distance" Birds. 100-500 miles. But, truth be told, 120 to 336 is what I fly Yb's. In the USA, they are still considered an "Exotic" strain. You have to be a little off to pay such a price, and endure such aggressive birds. They will fight you in the hand, and beat up your current birds, and take over the prime nest boxes. They are hard to handle, and head strong. Just what I like. Introduce a few into your loft, and you will soon learn what I am talking about !!
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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 7th August 2005, 01:48 AM
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Sounds like Staff Van Reets, They fly very well crssed and pure.
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hillfamilyloft hillfamilyloft is offline
Posted 8th August 2005, 10:50 PM
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I have two Van Reet Cock breeders off of Mary and Vector crossed with Vic Miller birds. I am not impresses so far with their young when crossed back to Miller birds. I have lost three birds and two are from these birds. Can anyone suggest a cross that they have had good luck with? I thought I might get some purer Van Reet Blood to cross back to them.

I am more a believer in performance than strain. I have three rounds off of two pair that are flying the best. One pair is an Engels / Miller cross. The other is Miller with a sister to the hen of the first pair. A nest mates of these hens was 15th Vegas Crap Shoot, another finished 9th in another futurity. The Engels cock nest mate was 3rd 200 miles Colorado Classic. All pedigrees have winners in their blood. The Miller Cock, Den 584-De Dikki etc. Recent winners, one or two generations removed, not two or three decades.

What are your thoughts on buying futurity winners vs Paper?

What are the racing history of your best birds?
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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 9th August 2005, 12:46 AM
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Avoid the birds that someone else has been and claims to be Staff Van Reet or anything else, if you can go straight to the most direct sourse of these birds.

I obtained Staff Van Reets that were children and grandchildren down from McLaughlin’s top birds. http://www.mclaughlinusa.com/ Out of the approx 15 birds I bought I found only two that went on to the breeder boxes. I crossed them with my Janssen’s that were obtained straight from the Ejerkamps. They are out of the Famous 05 and 06 and their cousin the “Bond” all three were owned by Hans Ejerkamps and their grandchildren were Imported by my brother and I directly from the Netherlands.
http://www.eijerkamp.com/(oewntl554g...)/default.aspx

After crossing the Staffs with the Janssen’s I then took their best children and crossed them back to the two originals that I kept. I found that a ¾ cross of Staff and Janssen fly’s the best. I found the same was true with the Janssen’s as well. A ¾ Janssen Staff cross fly’s assume as well.

Basically I took two inbred family's and crossed them. Both my brother and I fly an Easterly course. So, most of the time the birds face heavy headwinds as they fly west to go home. So far we are in our second full year of flying this course with these birds. Many a time we have only been a few minites behind the race winners for the combine. Best results to date, was a cock bird that took second place for the club and combine on a 300mi race. He was a seven month old late hatch mix of the two bloodlines.
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 9th August 2005, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hillfamilyloft
I have two Van Reet Cock breeders off of Mary and Vector crossed with Vic Miller birds. I am not impresses so far with their young when crossed back to Miller birds. I have lost three birds and two are from these birds. Can anyone suggest a cross that they have had good luck with? I thought I might get some purer Van Reet Blood to cross back to them.

I am more a believer in performance than strain. I have three rounds off of two pair that are flying the best. One pair is an Engels / Miller cross. The other is Miller with a sister to the hen of the first pair. A nest mates of these hens was 15th Vegas Crap Shoot, another finished 9th in another futurity. The Engels cock nest mate was 3rd 200 miles Colorado Classic. All pedigrees have winners in their blood. The Miller Cock, Den 584-De Dikki etc. Recent winners, one or two generations removed, not two or three decades.

What are your thoughts on buying futurity winners vs Paper?

What are the racing history of your best birds?


Hello Hill Family Loft,

You raise some very good points.

A "Brand" name on a bird, does not make it more then average.

A "Pretty" pedigree does not mean, that a bird is better then average.

However, a "Family" or "Strain", which ever term you care to use, is very important in my view, when it comes to breeding. A single cock or hen, which wins one important race, may not have been the best bird in the race that day. When there are 40 or 50 birds on the drop, and seconds seperate dozens of birds, was the 1st bird clocked, really the best canidate for breeding ?

Now if parents, grand parents, great grand parents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. have all won races, then I feel real good about those family genes. You have to look at the bird in your hand, and judge it according to what you as a breeder are trying to do. If, this is backed up by the bird preforming well in the races, so much the better.

My thinking is that Great birds, come from Great Stock. The more Great Stock within the family tree, the more likely these genes will be passed on. The old...the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree theory. The pedigree, is just one of the tools. I personally, would prefer a proven close family line, then a collection of various winners, from various sources. Which would produce all types and styles and quality of birds.
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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 9th August 2005, 12:51 PM
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Yes, maintain a good top of the line inbred family. however if you do not introduce top blood to them from time to time eventually you will loose the vigor and strength that made them so good in the first place. Even the Janssen Bros. brought in new blood to mix with their own. By doing this you maintain whats called "hybred vigor", and the quaility of your stock will remain high.

I've seen and handled plenty of birds claiming to be pure this or that. They were little better in most cases that a coman street pigeon. They had pedigrees of course that proved thier linage was indeed inbred, in most cases back to a single bird. If you have an inbred family of birds and you have high losses each year, then your in trouble and need to find a good cross before you lose the entire line.

Don't get me wrong I maintain inbred birds as well as outcrosses. I find the outcrosses fly most distances the best. The outcrosses are able to fly week in and week out without any down time, the inbreds on the other hand need more upkeep to maintain the same level of competition. Occassionally I have an outcross that is bred back into the main family of birds. I do this to maintain the quality of the stock and keep the "hybred vigor" alive and strong.

I highly recommend to everyone www.winningmagazine.nl this site is owned and maintained by Steven Van Breeman one of the top fliers and breeders inthe Netherlands. I recommend you read the "Art of Breeding" by Prof. Anker and Van Breemans own work " Hints for mating breeding and selecting" the sequel to The late Prof. Anker's book.
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 10th August 2005, 04:16 AM
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Inbreeding


Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman
Yes, maintain a good top of the line inbred family. however if you do not introduce top blood to them from time to time eventually you will loose the vigor and strength that made them so good in the first place. Even the Janssen Bros. brought in new blood to mix with their own. By doing this you maintain whats called "hybred vigor", and the quaility of your stock will remain high.

I've seen and handled plenty of birds claiming to be pure this or that. They were little better in most cases that a coman street pigeon. They had pedigrees of course that proved thier linage was indeed inbred, in most cases back to a single bird. If you have an inbred family of birds and you have high losses each year, then your in trouble and need to find a good cross before you lose the entire line.
Hello Lawman ,

That is what a lot of people do. Run in a cross, and then back into the family line. To each his own. If my family suffers from inbreeding depression, to the point where they can no longer fly in competition, then their value as breeders, from my viewpoint, has increased.

I maintain two straight inbred family lines. The one I call my Super Champion/President Janssen line, the other my Ludo lines. The crosses from these two lines is what produces the Hybred Vigor in the race team. As of yet, inbreeding depression has not been noticable, in the "Parental" lines, even from numerous Father x Daughter, Father x Grand Daughter, Bro x Sister, Nephew x Aunt combinations etc.

And you are so very correct about pretty pedigrees being sold concerning "Inbred" birds. Inbreeding is simply a tool. It will not produce great pigeons from average ones. And even more care must be taken in the selection process. Otherwise, you can take large steps backwards.
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 10th August 2005, 09:04 AM
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When you look at managed family lines within the loft. A person can have several lines of the same strain but different family lines. So crossing is from one family to the other. But still with in the strain of birds. Total out cross. comes from outside. And perhaps a different strain. Yes vigor Does come. But a controled line of birds managed well will last many years without a total out cross. Some people make the mistake of inbreeding to go back to a certion foundation in the pedigree. When this is done. You need a little insight to what you are doing it for. And remember testing the birds. Not makeing a bunch of future breeders. When the right bird is produced you build around that 1 bird. Lets say you have 3 to 5 families in the loft. Then you have 3 to 5 ways to out cross that family. But stay within the line Vigor can show the first cross But can it reproduce Will it take the family forward or backward. Bloodlines that have shared a base line Can be crossed well. Even distance flyers to speed bird birds. But you mostly just fly the birds. Later after proven well you may put the bird to use. BUT many will not . Sometimes that is a mistake. ALL a proven lone does is set a cosistant program that repeats its self. THAT is what a person should want. IT takes years to devlop a line of birds. WHY tear it down. when you can make your crosses right in the loft. of the same strain but different family base. There by keeping the line going And at the same time if the bird shows it was a usefull bird it can be bred to eather family to put its mark there to. Total out crosses have been used by perhaps all or most breeders BUT studied for need that the bird has. What is hard in real life. is Its hard to get to the top. and even harder to stay there. So well managed birds help get you there and help keep you there. AS long as its remembered Fads Or just getting the win. Means less then building the consistant set of birds that will time after time prove there worth. A bird that can wqin today. but never breed a winner or loose every race after is a luck bird for 1 or just a few races. Only a handfull of birds make the final cut to the top in any loft. those birds are the blocks that set foundations for the future. If you raise 50 or 100 hundred birds From a season. Say 2 3 are perhaps the top birds of the year. HOW many others are usefull birds that can still make the cut. Still have a place in the loft. Or perhaps help a different flyer gain. Say maybe six or 8. the others are not up to being sold or taking anybody forward. So we see say up to around 10 to 11 birds That end up being the test birds. 2 to 3 of them are the key birds to watch. Sure the others get flown. But at the end of the race season They just do not have what it takes. To many times people take those birds and sell paper on them. Takes the next person years to do good. Just give those birds away NO paper with them It takes at least 3 years to study a future breeder from the flying loft. EACH person that breeds pigeons makes there own family of birds. JUSt some do not go forward Because they Do not take the time to get to see the results. Which takes a few years. But half heartly put the birds together with a map to where they are trying to take the birds for the best results. I guess I better shut this book down
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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 10th August 2005, 11:54 AM
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What your describing is not true Inbreeding in its strictest sense......

Inbreeding is the act of taking a pigeon back to its own father/mother grandfather/grandmother or brother/sister matings. you cant do this continually without introducing new blood, or you risk loosing your entire bloodline.

what your describing takes time to develope, a family of closely related birds. This in my opinion, inorder to do it properly would take a lot of birds and space. otherwise you again risk loosing the line by the loss of a bird or two.

Outcrossing is the act to taking two totally unrelated birds and breeding them together. The history books on pigeon fanciers of the past are full of top legend that had inbreed or loosly related birds that in there own right did well for generations (of birds). But never quite attained the top results they were looking for untill they brought in outside bloodlines and crossed them there own.

No matter who's family of birds you look at if you go back far enough you will find outcrossings and loose family matings that brought the bloodlines to greater glory and inbreeding allone could ever have done.

No wonder my freinds in Europe think all us Americans are nuts. We want pure this or that when we purchase birds. The best of Europe, dont even use pure inbreeding for their colony's of birds. Most maintain, large family groups, but how many of us here in the US can afford to keep that many birds. So it becomes neccessary more often than in europe to bring in new blood. If your lucky you can bring in blood related to what you already have, but bring in the new blood you must or lose all you've worked to attain.
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 10th August 2005, 04:04 PM
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Lawman. Before you start inbreeding You have to have a line to build off. And You do not have to keep such a large number of breeder pairs. Say you have a top cock bird Or hen. That you want to breed a family of birds around. You start down the line. Breeding that blood into The line. Aunts uncles cousins. And down to grand parents parents Brother sister. BUT if you move to fast on the line. YOu tighten up the blood line to fast. And end up suffering. From to close of a inbred family. And about the friends in europe. Thinking the americans are crazy. Well. HOW many of them have bred down the line. A large number have and will still do. Sure there are some that Bring in new birds often. Like I said though in the breeder loft. You can have several family lines going at a time. NOT just 1. But top breeders are few and far between. And one does not have to have large numbers. Just a few think that way. Quality allways out does numbers Nothing is pure. Look at the racing homer. Its across from the get go. And many strain trace back to several of the old line strains. Thats why you look at different lines and notice a strong comparision. No body will get past a few wins with out some kind of program going on in the breeding loft. Sure a cross can fly and win. And many people have cross bred birds. NOTHING wrong there. I have allways said a 2 dollar bird can beat a 10,000 dollar bird in a race. Im just saying a family of birds show relation And carry the winning on for years. In any winning line you find background. problem ther is the paper sellers. They sell birds that can not make the cut. for the sake of money. And people but thinking ok. I have some good birds now. When agin work has to be done. In america I see to often people try a new line out and do not get the wins often change lines and keep doing so. When all they had to do is buy less for more. And start right. Saves alot of down falls. Do not have to spend a fortune just get the best you can afford at the time. ! pair of top birds will start a line of birds. That can win. Same goes in show birds. How many family strains in europe started with just 3 4 pair of birds? several. Yes in america people want to keep that europe name going. Even if the orginal breeder died 50 years ago. YOUR birds will have your mark on them. your results in the races will attest to your program. When americans remember its there bloodline. Of birds NOT vanloons ludlos leen boers on and on. That the have developed And are selling From a base line strain Then europe birds Should not be needed as much . Because Some of the best pigeons in the world are right here in america. Race or show type. They just need to be raced in a larger number. State races. Or large combine at least. Because the only way to get numbers in races is to increase flyers. No town in america can say they have a 10 000 bird race. Alot will have a 50 bird race 100. think its great because they have a 200 bird race. Do away with A B and C races. for get winning Let the bird do that. But then a lot would leave the hobby because they can not win any more. Because they had higher caliber Birds being flown aginst them. But in a few years. The people that want to go forward Improve there line stick it out And boom . Racers in America have done what other countries have done for years. Pulled together for the large races. Even 4 district state races would get numbers up alot. how many race clubs are in your state ? How many say within a hundred mile area. Then how many flyers total. Time lets say 1 race per station times up to thirty birds per flyer or even forty. The numbers increase alot. And with todays gas prices thecosts go down on raceing too. Or larger awards on wins.
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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 11th August 2005, 07:55 AM
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You may be forgetting one thing. Just as there are many top fliers thoughout the world that have families of birds. There are many who attained the top by doing nothing more than breeding the best back to the best, generation after generation. Bottom line in that both systems work and you have to use what works best for you. As I said, even the great Janssens Bros. didn't attain their greastest acheivements by maintaining and keeping only their colony of birds. They had one bros that did nothing but look for the best of the best from other bloodlines so they could breeding that in with their own. by doing this they were able to stay on top. you will never in my book attain the top or stay there if you dont occassionally bring in new bloodlines. I'm not saying your coman street birds. you have to constantly look at other top performing birds and bloodlines and be ready to do the occassional cross or your done for.
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 11th August 2005, 09:42 AM
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Yes if the reason for the new blood will enhance your program. A sound program looks at the different family lines on performance. And then new blood has to be tested in performance. Ive known people that stayed within a line for over thirty years befor bringing in new out side blood. The worst thing that happens on new blood is tearing down a family of birds. Thats why new birds have to be tested. Befor setting there blood to deep in the family. And yes New blood may be the need at a point. A good breeder will make that matter up if needed. Crossing to just do it. Has short term effect. Yes a win. But is short performance Worth it. NO If you look down the road. raiseing breeding raceing or showing. The birds. For a long term program. Not five ten years. But twenty thirty years A line of birds does much better. The people who get in to raceing for 5 or 10 years. Are just getting to a point of sound breeding. It takes some time to see what you have to work with. It take some time to find the right birds. A breeder who buys from more then 3 different sources will have alot of short falls. Mixing blood sets nothing. Best to best is not a true idea. Many times a brother or sister. that raceed below the winning bird Proves to be the better over all breeder Then the other bird. results Is trying to find that prepotent bird that produce bird after bird that helps set a program. Few prepotent birds get raised. BUT the are keys To the future. Around thosae birds comes the family. But As you have said each there own. Great debate though.
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