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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 15th August 2005, 03:03 PM
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman
Figured my last comments would stir up the conversation a bit.

It was "the Old Klaren 46", Van Breeman was only able to obtain a few Children, grandchildren and great grandchildren out of him, but by breeding the best youngsters of each pairing back to the best of the close matings always being aware that the only common ancestor was the "46" with each subsequent breeding, he was able to produce "The Goede Jaarling". But even he brought in pure Janssen blood (technically an out crossing, no common ancestry within four generations) to help in his breeding program.

And as to not having distance birds or saying what they are out of well, thatís because I've only talked about some of my short and middle distance blood ....... other than the home grown Trentonís I believe I mentioned in one or two articles.

Thatís because even on the net, I'm going to give out everything I have for bloodlines. When my brother and I began flying about 20-25 yrs ago. We obtained birds that were a combination of Waterhouse and Torrekan Beakearts crossed onto pure Janssen blood. The person we obtained the birds from was the top flier in the area at the time and no one could come close to beating his birds. We both worked construction back then and we did a lot of work on his home in exchange for a complete round of youngsters off of his best stuff. the word got out that we had obtained 30 youngsters. Then approx. 3 weeks before the first race, when we got home from work, our entire loft of birds was gone. Approx 6 weeks later we had two birds show back up and about a week after that a third showed up with bloody feet and a broken wing. These three birds combined with two Waterhouse Beakeart grizzles obtained from another flier began the foundation of our birds. Some of which is still in both our lofts today.

As for warren....maybe he needs to re-read what I've stated.......I never said I didnít believe in inbreeding, or line breeding (which I prefer of the two). I just believe too many people concentrate so much on these two things that they fail to bring in new blood as needed, before itís too late. (Hence the example of my friend). And I believe too many new fliers get so caught up in trying to reproduce one or two good fliers in their lofts that they loose their way.

I could show several other examples of the same type of thing with in my own Combine. Iím sure if you all think about it you've seen it happen in your own areas as well. People who have concentrated families of birds some extending back over 20-30 years, which have each of them made the almost fatal error of inbreeding to far, without an infusion of similar blood from a different loft.

I agree that you donít wish to bring in totally outside bloodlines. But if you go back into the histories, many different bloodlines have been founded solely or in part on the Janssen bros. bloodlines. For example if you have "pure" Janssenís and you bring in a "Pure Muleman" for the crossbreeding. Itís not a true crossbreeding, its line breeding, since Muleman got his big boost from an infusion of Janssen blood into his own. The same can be said of Tourniers, Hofkens, Red fox, and many others. You would have to go far to find a bloodline of birds that has not been to some degree influenced by the Bros. Janssen and their birds.

Like Treesa said, Good arguements though

Some Very Good Points....Law Man.

Perhaps I misunderstood your message. If you are going to take a line of birds and improve upon it, and take it forward, then it is nessecary to introduce new genes, from superior stock. I don't think you will find much argument there.

I guess you could trace the ancestors of all our pigeons, back to just a handful of birds. And the point being ? As soon as a fancier places his hands on the birds, and guides their matings, then he has placed his mark on this line, strain, breed etc. If I am not correct, then how many generations, does he have to produce, in order to lay claim to the breeding "credits" ? And at what point does his "family" become a strain, or even a new breed ?

One last thing....as you search for that "New" crossing material. The higher up you go in genetic quality, the harder it becomes to find suitable, superior stock. I have experimented with some crosses with some American Aces, but the jury is still out. That is one of the reasons, my family has become more inbred then most. The lack of a high quality cross. In the mean time, are YB training is showing some surprizing results. Our "Straight" family line, is out performing all of our other lines, hybreds, and crosses. I had expected some performance loss due to inbreeding. But, it appears to be just the opposite. At this point, the introduction of new blood, has resulted in lower octane. Not bad, but not high octane racing fuel.

So in the mean time, the search for superior stock, is always an ongoing process. Personally, I don't see the purpose for doing a cross, unless you have important genetic material to gain from the cross itself. Otherwise, what is the point ?

Great sharing of ideals. Much food for thought. In the end, the birds themselves, will determine who here is on the best path to achieve excellence.
Thats what makes this so much fun !

Last edited by SmithFamilyLoft; 15th August 2005 at 03:08 PM.. Reason: Spelling
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 15th August 2005, 09:29 PM
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Good points Warren. In the loft. Say you we will go with ludlos. And you have say 3 families of ludlos going around 3 different key birds. That are ludlos. Those families have 1 thing in comman they are all still ludlos base line birds. But of different families. So the crossss when needed. Can come from another family right in the loft. And still be ludlo. Now we look down the road many years. And the whole family all families are starting to get closer. Then we want. Now we stayed with the ludlo as a strain.base. We have learned by now other breeders that stayed true to that base also. But there birds would be family ouut cross. So we go there to find our future need. Or with base line reseash we cross a ludlo base bird Back into the birds. Test the young and old bird flyers. If it works. Whil now we have reduced that base to a more percent ludlo line. In the three years. taking just the best 1 maybe 2 birds. Back into the family 1. Producing now almost pure set ludlos. That can cross to the other families. To put vigor back. Now we spent doing this say 5 years. Because the other birds prognency had to be tested. And results had to show the birds past line would not tear down the line that was built. First year may have showed good results. For young birds. But the old bird races told much more. Then breeder selction. For the top 2 birds had to prove that the results could carry forward into the future generations. So it becomes much easyer to add the ludlo bird by the time the key bird shows on the peddigree as the great grand father or great grand dam. On most all of that family of birds. That way you will never really get to tight. And when selection is tight on stock breeders. We now that this could be 10 to 15 years on a small family. Now a larger family we know it could be spread to 25 years. And that bird should be in the loft. From another ludlo family. But years are as matings go. Some birds wouldf have been taken tighter earlyer. Then used to bring up the rear. And as some key birds were put together for several seasons because they clicked so well. Lets say we are breeding 3 families. 5 pair to a family.total 15 pair Now I will let you judge how long for your program it would take for you to puthe key bird of the three families. to the point that it appeared as the great dam or sire on most all those birds of the family. Then remember you have 3 families going. Taking the needed family outcross from one of the other 2 families. Bringing into the line how many years do you think you can go without ever leaving the loft to obtain outside blood other then what you have. All I can say. For me it would be alot of years. So when bought right bred right. I see little need to go out and replinish the birds for years to come. Not unless a person just thinks some other strain would be faster. AND that often happens with todays flyers. Perhaps thats why they never quite get what there looking for. To much time spent looking not enough time spent breeding.
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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 16th August 2005, 02:07 AM
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OK , the crosses in the first generation were not as fast as your fastest inbreds, take the best of the crosses and cross them in again, so your flying a 3/4 - 1/4 cross. If your results are like mine have been you'll find these birds will be just as fast if not a little faster then your original blood, they will also have more stamina, they will also be able to be flown further distances and for more weeks in succession before having to rest.

Also, I knew a flier over 20 years ago that did nothing but inbred his birds... he had the formula worked out and could tell you in what generations his birds would perform and what generations would not. After his death (I was in the army at the time) his wife sold off everything, and I honestly dont know what happened to the charts he had. But as I recall in talking with him, the first through the 8th to 10th generation of inbreeding (he practised pure inbreding) he obtained fairly good results off of the birds. Then again in the 14th through the 17th he again obtained excellant results. the birds appeared to be faster and stronger than previous generations. after this he would get hit and miss results up until about the ...... I think it was almost the 30th generation......when again for several generations he would get outstanding results. now mind you he maintained almost 50 breeding pairs, (all were related and he could tell you exactly what generation of cross they were and could acuratly tell you how the youngsters would perform and at what distances) He would raise up almost 200 youngsters, just to produce a flying youngbird team of approx. 60 birds each year.

For me thats just not good odds, when you have to breed that many youngsters, to only have 60 or so left for the first race.

Now mind you, I practise both inbreding (mostly linebreeding actually) and outcrossing. I bred a total of 64 birds this year, to date I still have 63 left at this point in the training. The one bird I lost was off of an experimental breeding, (a total outcrossing)and it was lost off of the loft. Its nest mate is still here and is doing well. It will be interesting to see if the nestmate is still here at the end of the season. But as you've both said, part of the fun is in seeing if all our calculations for breeding pan out in the long run.
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 16th August 2005, 10:28 AM
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I agree there. A person should look at there breeders results and allways phase out the birds that do not pass on there quality. Then youngbirds do not have to be breed in such large numbers. 50 pair in the breeding loft is alot to build around anyway. And which pair produces the best and which pair is number 50 in the different lines. And haveing 50 pair Of breeders What made those birds so good they needed to go to the breeding loft. Its hard enough to ever raise Or but 1 key bird to build around. 50 pairs would mean several different family lines around several different key birds. I would say at least 5 key birds. even up to 10. Thats a large number in the same loft. Sure it happens but Often you will see the it was over a large number of years. Of racing and testing birds. to produce 5 to 10 prepotent. That can produce bird after bird that can make a win. A person can start with 2 to 3 pair. And then buy 1 pair to add for say the next three years. To get up to 6 pair. of fine stock. NOT really spend more money sometimes as the person that getts several pair And has to keep buying to find the right birds To go forward with. And do well. ITS not how many pair you have its How many pair you have can breed the type of birds you need. You say you are flying a cross course. Birds have to be breed that can buck the cross winds. And not skirt to far in the arc. I would say a wide frontal tapered to a shorter backed bird. So the bird does not tire as soon. You have to look at each bird type on its performance. When we change flight course We change set needs. Around the clock flying Does not really make better birds. But makes for different types Needed. So blending that type where a bird can fly both good and harder courses Has to be balanced out. trying to maintain a speed balance Alot of things go into the breeding loft that way in on results.
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 16th August 2005, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman
OK , the crosses in the first generation were not as fast as your fastest inbreds, take the best of the crosses and cross them in again, so your flying a 3/4 - 1/4 cross. If your results are like mine have been you'll find these birds will be just as fast if not a little faster then your original blood, they will also have more stamina, they will also be able to be flown further distances and for more weeks in succession before having to rest.

Also, I knew a flier over 20 years ago that did nothing but inbred his birds... he had the formula worked out and could tell you in what generations his birds would perform and what generations would not. After his death (I was in the army at the time) his wife sold off everything, and I honestly dont know what happened to the charts he had. But as I recall in talking with him, the first through the 8th to 10th generation of inbreeding (he practised pure inbreding) he obtained fairly good results off of the birds. Then again in the 14th through the 17th he again obtained excellant results. the birds appeared to be faster and stronger than previous generations. after this he would get hit and miss results up until about the ...... I think it was almost the 30th generation......when again for several generations he would get outstanding results. now mind you he maintained almost 50 breeding pairs, (all were related and he could tell you exactly what generation of cross they were and could acuratly tell you how the youngsters would perform and at what distances) He would raise up almost 200 youngsters, just to produce a flying youngbird team of approx. 60 birds each year.

For me thats just not good odds, when you have to breed that many youngsters, to only have 60 or so left for the first race.

Now mind you, I practise both inbreding (mostly linebreeding actually) and outcrossing. I bred a total of 64 birds this year, to date I still have 63 left at this point in the training. The one bird I lost was off of an experimental breeding, (a total outcrossing)and it was lost off of the loft. Its nest mate is still here and is doing well. It will be interesting to see if the nestmate is still here at the end of the season. But as you've both said, part of the fun is in seeing if all our calculations for breeding pan out in the long run.
Hello Again Lawman !

I appreciate your input. I like everyone else, have some set ideals. But, from my experience, the more flexable you are to new ideals, or points of view. The more likely, you just may learn something. Your 3/4 to 1/4 % ideals, have crossed my mind. I have "saved" selected specimins, from various matings over the years. Your post, confirms my thinking.

I am happy for your "success" so far in YB training. Would you be willing to share with us your 1st Race Results, when they come out ?

Your results to me indicate:

#1 Super Management / Super Birds

or

#2 Lack of any real challenge to this point.

The results so far, would indicate a very respectable showing. The race, after all is the real testing ground.
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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 17th August 2005, 01:07 AM
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Hello again all,

My youngbird races dont start till middle of oct. so we've just started down the road, I dont want to burn them up before the races even start. Usually at this time I've lost several birds off the loft, ether from straight up stupid desease or by hawks. This year however like I said I've only lost the one.

I'm looking forward to this years season and I'll be sure to post my results for all.

As for body types, your right on my course the birds need to be more stout with a shorter body build. hows the saying go, "Horses for courses", It all depends on the course your flying and the conditions your flying in as to the body type needed.
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 17th August 2005, 12:36 PM
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Good thing on the later season Is the weather will bi a little cooler. And the birds should be thru the heavy moult. Better feathered. But hawks will probably be moving in that time also. Around here youngbird season will start in about 2 to 3 weeks for most. Still will be warmer. Birds will not be thru the moult at first. It would be better for the birds if the season started at least say the last week of sept. But it does not. GOOD luck on the races
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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 18th August 2005, 03:18 PM
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Yeah like all things the slightly different season for racing is both good and bad. As you said by starting later the birds have gone through a more full moult and the weather is cooler. However, last year we got hit hard by bad weather about half way through the season. Now mind you I'm in Southern California and we don't normally get enough snow to shut down our roads and freeways. but last year we had to cancel one race due to the bad weather and roads being closed down and several others were a close thing.

Course the guys back east and in the north deal with this all the time, but its abnormal weather for us here. So it allows us to have a later start for our youngbird season.

I wish all good luck in the upcoming season.
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agoodbird agoodbird is offline
Posted 2nd September 2005, 03:43 AM
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trentons


I just started to raise racers again after getting out of show birds. i bought otto meyer trentons fron gary potts & oshaben trentons fron chuck oshaben. this young bird season i have 40 birds out in 8 different lofts to see what these birds can do ( not racing myself/work schedule can't train) .one loft that has been racing since the 60's i gave 6 trentons and 2 out of his 1st three races this year his firt bird was a trenton !so much for the speed birds !these birds supposed to be slow & long distance. it will be interesting to see how they will fly the longer old bird races . i also will be crossing some sions & gurnays in these birds . gurnays are hal conn/copper beach & sions are goirzio & skylake bloodline.as you see i like the old strains but they need to prove themselfs on the road to stay in my loft. agoodbird ( greg )
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 2nd September 2005, 12:12 PM
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Old line that were managed right Are still good birds. BUT a person has to remember Most would have been out bred as the key person Has been gone along time. I used to like the gurnays. As they seemed to be a dependable breed. Not as many people raise them now.
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 2nd September 2005, 07:06 PM
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Cool

Strain Indentification


One of the things about the old line Trentons, is you can spot them from across the yard. Which is more then you can say for most "strains". The problem with this "strain" indentification, is that it really does not mean much.

A local guy has some beautiful Trentons, he has won some shows with them. Problem is, they can't fly worth a darn. He lost 98% of them on various training tosses. So, were these "Really" Trentons ? If this fancier says, "Trentons are no good for racing". Because his 10 pairs of pedigreed stock, can't produce a bird that can make it to the 1st race, what if anything, does this mean ?

And then we just go one step further, and say for a moment, it was some other strain. If the creator and name sake of the strain, died 75 years ago, what is the purpose of attaching that long ago breeder's name to the bird ??
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 3rd September 2005, 08:54 AM
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That comes to a point Of past statements. Yes the breeding mark has changed on any group of birds as they left the original breeder. And the old line breed strains. Would have had to been out crossed. To other strains. At some point. A person that bred on selction. Trying to maintain a strain . Could keep performance up. BUT still the old line has to bring an out cross. So that old strain is base line strain. At best. Something about us americans. We set on keeping names. The pigeon it just knows its a pigeon. We call it a sion a janssen And such. We start with a foundation and build from there. ITS the foundation that keeps a strong program. Just as the foundation to our houses. If its weak. The house settles and we have problems. But at best. There are people that can put a mark on there birds that take them forward. Maintaining a certion value from the past. In other countries they take that persons name of a line. Here they do not as much. So strain names stay intact. when they should change to at least. Add that persons name to the strain. As really there is no purebred old line familys left. Just maintained carryers of thats set value. If your lucky to find them. And we can not go by ped, Of past strains. WE better go by ped of the performers of those past strains. Other wise. It may say its a bird of this or that strain. BUT it can not fly around the block. There are alot of different pigeons to be had. Thers some good ones Then theres just a few great ones. That just a few people have. From those great ones Is where the next great ones will be raised. So we seek out the right breeder. To find that right bird. Strains are born from just a few birds that made the person a winner in the race circle. The others well they were just pigeons. Even though on paper it said they were a such and such strain. It better say how the bird performed. Then it means something. I better shut my statements down. Or I will carry on and on.
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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 12th September 2005, 01:42 PM
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All any person can say with certanty is that they are breeding from stock that originated from the Trentons, Janssens, Gurneys, Waterhouse or Torrekan beckaerts, ect. Once you obtain the birds and begin to breed and fly them. You begin changing the base bloodline by the very choices you make in breeding and flying selections. By this I mean that your selections for breeding purposes almost certainly are not going to be the same as the original founder of the bloodline. Over time the birds change and become the type of bird that flys your course for your area, be that into headwinds or tailwinds. The birds that can compete the best on your course are almost certainly going to be the ones that sooner or later make it into the stock loft. In the case of my location the birds most commanly have to comfront a combination of headwinds and crosswinds. Its only the occasional storm front that brings in tailwinds. Thus the birds that tend to perform the best have a more pear shaped body. The longer cast birds tend to go by the way side on this course. however if I'm flying from the north course instead of the east course the conditions change and the longer cast body has a distict advantage.
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 12th September 2005, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman
All any person can say with certanty is that they are breeding from stock that originated from the Trentons, Janssens, Gurneys, Waterhouse or Torrekan beckaerts, ect.
Hello Lawman,

Depending on the example, a person can't even say they own direct birds from the master. More likely, many owners, breeders, and generations are between the current owner, and the master himself. Which makes any reference to the orginal master, a rather pointless excersize, don't you think ?

Ah yes...but then there are the commercial considerations. The orginal master, could have died in the 1940's or earlier, but one might get a better price for his birds, if he places the orginal master's name on his product. Remember the famous quote from the circus guy ?
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 12th September 2005, 04:41 PM
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Hit the nail on the head there Warren Poeple sell a name. And it is just like name brand clothes or othere items names sell. To bad when it does not work we can not go to the return line. Because sometimes its a year or 2 befor we relize the birds do not help make a program.
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