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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 3rd December 2005, 05:39 AM
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 5,367
Question

Where are your results Lawman


Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman
Hello again all,

My youngbird races dont start till middle of oct. so we've just started down the road, I dont want to burn them up before the races even start. Usually at this time I've lost several birds off the loft, ether from straight up stupid desease or by hawks. This year however like I said I've only lost the one.

I'm looking forward to this years season and I'll be sure to post my results for all.

As for body types, your right on my course the birds need to be more stout with a shorter body build. hows the saying go, "Horses for courses", It all depends on the course your flying and the conditions your flying in as to the body type needed.
Hello Lawman,

After your ideals on breeding, I was really hoping you would share your race results that you promised.

Earlier in this thread, you said you started with 64 birds, and only lost 1 in training. How many of the 63 made it through all the races ? Were all your winners crosses ? Did the races confirm your breeding ideals ?

My race results are posted under the "United Pigeon Combine" for the world to see, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I remain convinced, that the best advice is to keep your breeders inbred, and cross them with other inbred lines for racing material.
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 3rd December 2005, 04:29 PM
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: enid okla
Posts: 4,198
I would say through out the history of pigeon keeping. Both in show type or flying Type. A solid foundation of family built birds have prevailed over and thru the years. Chance has come for short spurts by luck of the cross. But then gone in a flash when it can not be reproduced. Out crossed family lines to other family lines can and have improved over all lines in the past and will so in the future. But that is agin through the controled breeding of family crossed birds. And yes a person can get this and that put it together and build a line of birds. IT takes time but can be done. BUT when solid base line birds are avalible To get and can set a foundation program. Its better to spend a little more get fewer to start with and have a faster more productive program. AS real truth goes it takes years to get a consistant program goeing. And years more when starting at a unknown starting point. Knowing background performance of different lines enables output ideas on the cross. As inbred birds are managed for desired qualities. The are also managed to keep strenghs in a line by bringing in the desireed family out cross of the same line. That being The same strain but different family line. Then when looking for total out cross. You can find lines that have some of the same foundation strain in there makeup. That being a distant relation but total cross in strain. Bringing back finer points and of setting the undesired needs. Agin that takes test mating to top loft birds working on setting that outcross in with the exsisting family line. AND hard testing the performance of the youngbirds raised to see where those birds fit for future breeding of the extended line to inbrred the points needed to gain in the generations to come. Each person sets a mark on there birds. Making a improved or backwards step in an esisting strain. HOPE is to improve If the key is there to do so. That prepotent bird that so many need to find. And so few know what to look for to find it. That 1 bird builds the winning family breeding hopefully other keys to the puzzle. AND when lucky enough that top loft has a small handful of key birds in which several families are built. AND hold the cross point right in the loft for many years to come. The breeding loft is and allways should be the top of the line. The flying loft is the testing area Keeping the top flyers taking them through several seasons watching there performance. There brother and sisters performance. AND there parents perfomance in productions Of percentage of producing birds that can perform. Then introduce back into the breeding loft that certion bird that has proved it will enhance the family line That has been built. HARD work doing it right. BUT my how that pay off comes ten fold in time. THATS why just a hand full of people reach what I call the top. AND people all over come to them because they know they can find birds that will not only improve there results. But can trust the fact that those few people maintain only quality birds that earned there place in the loft. Were not there for just selling or keeping. And when purchased yes you pay more. BUT you know you payed for what you got. NOT what was just a pedigree that did nothing when bred. NO I think warren is on his way to be a breeder that will be trusted and do the racing pigeon world some good. I say this as Over the time here on pigeons . com. I have shared threads and posts. A email or 2. With him. AND can say he is clearly working towards a strong line of birds. That by its self says if a person enjoys the hobby. knows where they need to try and take the birds to get there best results Has to build from a foundation of quality birds. Take them forward to there needs. keep the small number of top birds raised offer to others for sell only birds that you the owner have or are will to have used yourself and grade them down to the lower performance. AND not sell those as papered birds to misguided people. BUT offer them as starter birds. in which many will still be better then others have. I had to give the birds up BUT I am glad to see people like Warren and others keep the pigeon hobby alive and respectful. And what I said on this post is my veiws on building and maintaining a strong loft and it just takes the desire to do it slow and steady. We all can not be winners. BUT we can all try to enjoy the birds and build them to a better point level thenwhen we started out. That mark will carry over to new and future people that we help and meet through the many years of enjoyment that pigeon keeping brings us. I guess pigeon raiseing is a art that just develops into a painting in which we have the brush to make it great And any great painting took time. BUT is remembered for ever when it stands out for the world to see.Those top breeders are the ones that have those great paintings in which we all learn from. And those paintings are just a pigeon to some uneducated people.But be it race horses. to race cars. It takes thought and study to improve build and win. Pigeons are no different a great hobby yes . But further a mark that a person makes while studying learning about that little bird we know as a pigeon. And 100 years from now. The few that worked hard names will still be spoken. still learned from. And yes still more people keeping pigeons as pets as racers as show birds ect. Thanks to that little bird with so many different faces that crawls first into the mind and heart of a child or adult and sticks with them.
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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 3rd December 2005, 11:47 PM
Join Date: Jul 2005
Country: United States
Location: So. California
Posts: 582
Hello Warren,

Trust me I don't hide from anyone......I thought about giving my reply by private e-mail to save some embarrassment…. but since you chose to do this publicly here goes. After some problems caused by members of my own Combine and at home, I’m not really in the mood to be overly nice…… I’m sure your words here were meant in a jesting manner and not as a personal attack, so I’ll explain.

First of all, my oldest son age 11yrs, he has been very active in helping me with our birds and in fact has two pairs of his own. One pair are Demon blood from Hawk Bait lofts in Northern California the Other is a mix, the cock is a inbred grandson to the Blue Fox from Kahn Lofts and the hen is from an inbred family down out of Ganus’ Godfather line. My son picked out the bird himself that he sent to the AU youth race. He chose one youngster out of the mixed pair to send. He took 18th place with his bird. When he got the bird home approx one month after the race its 10th flights were only half way in. Not bad for a crossed bird that apparently flew on blood flights.

Now shortly after this bird was sent to the race, my son was diagnosed with a very rare form of stage three bone cancer. Had the original diagnoses been correct my son was given less than 5yrs to live. Almost a third of patients die within the first year. Its called Osteoblastic Osteosarcoma (if I spelled it correctly). Up until about 10 years ago if this disease presented in the arms or legs the method used to get rid of it, was to remove the offending appendage. In my sons case it presented in the nasal cavity behind the right eye. Kind of hard to remove the head huh….

Now while this was going on a person whom up until this time I had considered a friend and member of my combine began causing problems. Now mind you if someone wants to have a friendly bet with other members of his club or combine as to who will win….well that’s up to them, I could really care less. I was presented with proof that this members club had mandatory betting and as Combine president I confronted him on it. At approx the same time, I was presented with information that my combine was illegally operating as a NON-profit organization here in California.

Now as far as the Combine was concerned they didn’t want to be bothered with any of this, they chose to ignore the fact that they were operating illegally and refused to do anything about the mandatory gambling. As my handle suggests I'm a police officer here in So Cal. and had I chose to the offending parties would have gone to jail. Basically I was told by members of the combine that my opinion on these issues or any other’s didn’t matter. I chose to take a more diplomatic route and presented the information to the AU with apparent negative results…… SO, I did the only thing I could do……I resigned as Combine President and quit the Combine. Now to the particular combine’s credit they have since fixed the problems with the State. As to the mandatory gambling who knows and quite frankly I'm no longer am a member of this Combine so I don’t care, it’s between them and the AU.

Now as for my son, He was sent to Children’s Hospital in Los Angeles, They performed an operation that to say the least left me very wary about the outcome. They opened up the front part of his skull, moved the frontal lobes of the brain out of the way then went down into the nasal cavity and removed a bone tumor that had a circumference of 4cm. roughly the size of a golf ball. They performed the reconstructive surgery at the same time and were able to save his right eye in the process (he now has 20-20 vision again). The tumor was tested after it was removed and it was stage one cancer, the experts are still trying to determine the exact type of cancer. The good news is the entire tumor was removed and at this point all the follow up exams show he is cancer free at this time. He will have to go in for follow up exams each year probably for the rest of his life…..Now, I’m not an overly religious man…..I had it shoved down my throat as a youth…..but I firmly believe that if it had not been for the grace of god and the skill he gave the surgeons my son would not be here today. It’s been approx. three months since the operation and he’s back in school full time and making almost straight A’s. The Doctors say that by next spring he can go back to playing baseball again (he’s the full time catcher for his little league team) and he will be at no more risk for injury than any other child.

Now as for the birds, I have culled a few of them that I didn’t think were up to par…..the rest are restless and will be ready for old birds in spring……More to come on that later.

Again Warren I’m sure your words were meant in jest……. It’s just been a rough several month’s on my family and I’m not in much of a jesting mood and haven’t been for some time….. As things here continue to settle back into a more normal routine I’ll begin posting more regularly again. Until then I wish all well, especially with the upcoming holidays.

Lawman


Quote:
Originally Posted by SmithFamilyLoft
Hello Lawman,

After your ideals on breeding, I was really hoping you would share your race results that you promised.

Earlier in this thread, you said you started with 64 birds, and only lost 1 in training. How many of the 63 made it through all the races ? Were all your winners crosses ? Did the races confirm your breeding ideals ?

My race results are posted under the "United Pigeon Combine" for the world to see, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I remain convinced, that the best advice is to keep your breeders inbred, and cross them with other inbred lines for racing material.
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 4th December 2005, 10:54 AM
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: enid okla
Posts: 4,198
Lawman pigeons aside You have alot going on with your life and family now. Thats more important then anything else. Im am very sorry to hear about your son. And do hope he recoverys totaly without any future problems. A person can not say I know how you feel. Because we are not you. But i want to extend my concerns that you have a bright out look ahead I hope and keep your sons needs a happy moment of recovery. Sincere hopes to your family Robert
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Skyeking Skyeking is offline
Posted 4th December 2005, 11:48 AM
Join Date: Jan 2003
Country: United States
Location: SE Coast Central Florida
Posts: 25,397
Hi lawman,

I just want to say I'm sorry for everything you have been going though, and I'm sending you my best wishes & prayers for your sons complete recovery. I wish you and yours a very happy holiday!



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Last edited by Skyeking; 4th December 2005 at 05:48 PM..
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TerriB TerriB is offline
Posted 4th December 2005, 12:36 PM
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Kent, WA, USA
Posts: 4,724
Lawman, you are to be commended for taking the high road as you did. What wonderful a example for your children. After the emotional roller-coaster you have been through, I wish you a holiday as special as you are!
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TAWhatley TAWhatley is offline
Posted 4th December 2005, 06:08 PM
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Lake Forest, CA, USA
Posts: 21,208
Hi Lawman,

I, too, am so very sorry for your son's health problems and hope that he will continue to do well and have a clean bill of health soon. You are to be commended for standing up for the right things with your club/combine as difficult as that may have been to do.

Hoping that you and your family have a joyous holiday season.

Terry



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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 5th December 2005, 04:39 AM
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 5,367
Hello Lawman,

First of all, thank you for your public service. I wondered if you were in law enforcement. Second of all, our thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

My intention was for some good natured ribbing. With what you have been going through, I am sure that you have alot on your mind. Please take care.
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agoodbird agoodbird is offline
Posted 19th January 2006, 02:49 AM
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3

vermeyens


Hi , i have been looking for vermeyens and seems like nobody races them any more. Does anybody still have this old strain ?
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lawman lawman is offline
Posted 19th January 2006, 06:34 AM
Join Date: Jul 2005
Country: United States
Location: So. California
Posts: 582
Sorry but I hadn't heard of them in a very long time (other than in some old books and magazines) I don't know of anyone who has them anymore.

Lawman
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Pikachu23739 Pikachu23739 is offline
Posted 19th January 2006, 08:20 PM
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by re lee
If you had a choice of the best racing homers in the world. What would you choose and why That line. And what would make that line better for you then you already have Or will be getting.
I would want a white homer because I really like yellow because it is my fav. color but I don't know if they got the color yellow.
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 19th January 2006, 09:21 PM
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: enid okla
Posts: 4,198
Yes there are plenty of yellow homers out there now days.
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 18th June 2006, 07:12 AM
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 5,367

Plenty of views and ideas....


Quote:
Originally Posted by SmithFamilyLoft
Hello Hill Family Loft,

You raise some very good points.

A "Brand" name on a bird, does not make it more then average.

A "Pretty" pedigree does not mean, that a bird is better then average.

However, a "Family" or "Strain", which ever term you care to use, is very important in my view, when it comes to breeding. A single cock or hen, which wins one important race, may not have been the best bird in the race that day. When there are 40 or 50 birds on the drop, and seconds seperate dozens of birds, was the 1st bird clocked, really the best canidate for breeding ?

Now if parents, grand parents, great grand parents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. have all won races, then I feel real good about those family genes. You have to look at the bird in your hand, and judge it according to what you as a breeder are trying to do. If, this is backed up by the bird preforming well in the races, so much the better.

My thinking is that Great birds, come from Great Stock. The more Great Stock within the family tree, the more likely these genes will be passed on. The old...the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree theory. The pedigree, is just one of the tools. I personally, would prefer a proven close family line, then a collection of various winners, from various sources. Which would produce all types and styles and quality of birds.
This was my view last summer, and in reading it again, I still think it is true. But, I am only offering my thoughts on the subject. I think this particular thread provides some valuable insight into the way people approach the breeding aspect of this sport.

I am bringing this thread back up to the forefront, because for the new person starting out, it may help to see the various ideas that people have. And perhaps it might help in the way you plan your loft's genetic future.
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hilltop hilltop is offline
Posted 26th March 2011, 01:36 PM
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 28
be very carefull,,,,linebreeding IS a form of inbreeding,,
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spirit wings spirit wings is offline
Posted 26th March 2011, 01:38 PM
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Country: United States
Posts: 20,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilltop View Post
be very carefull,,,,linebreeding IS a form of inbreeding,,
thread is from 2006......
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