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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 30th April 2005, 11:01 AM
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Best of the best


If you had a choice of the best racing homers in the world. What would you choose and why That line. And what would make that line better for you then you already have Or will be getting.
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upcd upcd is offline
Posted 13th May 2005, 02:04 AM
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Colors


I like colors. I guess I am into genes. But for racers I skip the color part and go for who could get home fast. I don't what line that would be.
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 13th May 2005, 04:29 AM
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Best of the Best !!


Good Robert,

I get a chance to express my preferences !

My girlfriends were, and now my wife, are blonde.
My dog of choice is a Rottweiler.
My horse of choice is the Thoroughbred.

And when it comes to racing pigeons, the Ludo Claessens have set the Gold Standard. I own some lines down from the "President" and "Super Champion" for crossing purposes, but when it comes down to a long, or hard, bad weather, or smash race, I know who will be in the clock. They just won't quit !

And talk about beautiful !

Check out Mr. Ripple, and some of his family !!!

http://hometown.aol.com/smithfamilyl...e/profile.html
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Happy Happy is offline
Posted 16th May 2005, 10:42 PM
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Super question, I'm sure there are super Racers over seas Belgium, Holland, etc., but I would have to go with what I have "Seen & Know".... Would obtain from Art Hees & Ed Lorenz. Both Flyers do SUPER at the Short-Med.-& Long. 125mi. through 600mi. "on the Day of Toss". Lorenz has his own family of "updated" Stassarts & Hees flys Short Face (His own family) "updated" with Verheyes... Lorenz & Hees were of the best in the San Fernando Valley, Ca for SOOOOOO Many yrs. & now Hees is still at the top in Florida!! They didn't just jump to the FAD $$$$ pigeons that so many do. They just updated there own familys & fly super at "ANY DISTANCE" with little change as possible to there Strains & Not Mob Flyers, multiple ClubFlyers. Simply put, the Best from California, & now Hees right at the top in Florida........They are also Beautiful birds in the loft.
Colors - For me I would stick to Hard Colors. Blue Checks, Dark Checks, Blue Bars, Slate, Opels, & a little Darker Reds that I knew didn't flight whip etc.. If I wanted Real colors, I'd get Show Homers/Racers. No pigeons in the world are a Beautiful as they are. If I ever stopped Racing I'd have them. they can still Loft Fly well & have all the Best in Color, Patterns, Type, Tame, etc.... Just my Opinion...... Happy
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 17th May 2005, 03:52 PM
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Stassarts are a old line family. About like bastin and sion. Where in other countries that name has faded. Thet do well at the 150 plus to say 600. Defintly looking back they seem to carry the dragoon line. showing around the eye cere. to me any way. And the belgium strains carried down from dragoon and antwerps in the development. Good to here some people are still baseing that line. Have not seen much stassarts in over 20 years around this area. And I still think right here in america there are just as many good birds as other countries. But perhaps not managed as well. But with the stakes in the money races climbing. I see a great future in the racing sport. As family line will be built that can consistantly compete. We did it with most all breeds of show birds. Now America has some of the best show birds in the world. Its time for the racers to grow to the top. Where the other countries will import from lines here And if you look Birds are scattered thru this large country That tests them perhaps harder Then several of the key countries do. Making the new line dependable.
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halfwatt halfwatt is offline
Posted 19th May 2005, 05:56 PM
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I like bastine bloodline, seem to fly strong, have several friends that race that bloodline, have had very good results
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 20th May 2005, 05:50 AM
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In all seriousness,

I question how anyone can really say they own a Bastin, Sion, or Stassart blood lines. The masters who created those birds were dead when I was a kid in the 50's. Every breeder who has selected the pairings since then, as put his mark on those birds. I venture that these old masters would not recognize the birds carrying their name.

The other point, is even if these birds were carefully selected, and line bred in individual cages over the decades, they were birds that won in the forty's and fifty's. Champions of fifty, sixty years ago, are very old news.

Champion pigeons, horses, race cars, or even humans of 20 generations ago, simply could not compete with today's champions. If that is not so, then you are saying that no improvement has been made in fifty years of selective breeding.

If the above masters were alive today, flying their birds of yesteryear, with the same system they used way back when, they would be at the bottom of the race sheet today. If you want to win today, you need to secure winning families, of today. And strive to constantly improve and refine those genes. Many a flier today, is using the same birds and methods that he used in the sixtys or 70's. They left their winning ways and past glories, in the past. Neither their birds, breeding, or methods kept up with the competition. They keep doing the same old thing, year after year, and wonder why they keep getting the same old results. You are either improving, and moving forward, or standing still. If you stand still, you will be left behind.

One more thing, the perfect racing pigeon and system, has not been developed or invented yet. Every year, I look, hope, and pray, for that one YB I raise, that will take my birds to a whole new level. In racing pigeons, good is simply not good enough. Many lofts, are packed with "good" pigeons. Now "Exceptional", "World Class", "Champions Champion", that is the stuff legends are made of.
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 20th May 2005, 09:08 AM
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I have to agree with your points on old strain lines And carry it forward to even the new lines. Most new lines have a older base that they were built off. Each line when bought by another person. Its that person that develops the branch line extention. But looking back at race horses. The modern race horse. does not run faster then the horses of the thirties They are just trained in a more modern fashion. The base speed of a homing pigeon. was based at 45 miles per hour. then add tail wind deduct head and cross winds. to come up with speed. Now that has not been improved on much. But refined quality carried forward maintained to stay at the top That has let the birds stay within a continued line of progress. Thats in the breeding loft. Selection of finding the balanced pairiring of the birds. And yes raiseing just 1 or perhaps 3 really good birds in a season. Is a plus. Now I do not look at the birds as world class. But when I say its a good bird. I mean it can carry forward. a workable useable bird that can win or improve a line. As lines are based on a small amount of birds. And Just 1 bird can be the key to a winning family line when used right. I think the idea. Is to devlop the eye some call it the minds eye. towards what you need to be sucessful in breeding for race or show. Every breeder no matter what they start out with. To be sucsessful leaves there mark on how they bred the birds. How they trained the birds recieved there affect also. And there is no great method . But there are sucsessful methods that work for many. I think if the birds are bred good taken care of not over crowded. They will have a stronger urge to get home. And winners of the past are in the past. They helped bring a line forward then And winners today help keep it going forward. Keeping a viable vigor thru select breeding is a large must . Thats why we look at the cross and see the heating up performance . So why not build it into the line After all each loft is really different. If the birds did not come diractly from the strain breeder. They are not fully that select strain. But base lined to it. So even say you raise Ludlos. You know a few others baseing off that line to. That are key breeders of competitive birds. Getting from them keeps the line going but allows for the cross production of a family line. Or yet research back to the family line original foundation. say that line can be introduced back to improve agin the line. Like someone started with janssen and wegge birds forty years ago. built a winning line. became known as as such and such. We now the line base was the 2 mentioned strains. We know janssens had been bred down from a wegge line also now we find the wegge line had reheated the future line. though its far removed in the past. perhaps by taking a janssen based bird of good quality we cross it to the line showin its been done in the past with good results. Test that breeding through races. put that back into the breeding loft. watch the improved performance. BECAUSE. WE you are starting to build our own line of birds. based off past methods of the select breeder. As all the crosses of the past should have carried forward by someone. They should have been improved on. So reintroducing along the base line. May very well hit that improved vigor. and key improvement. Well this book is getting to long. Just a thought.
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whitesnmore whitesnmore is offline
Posted 23rd May 2005, 03:55 PM
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HUH???? What????


Wow!!!! where were we at? You all lost me!!!!! Slow Down Please
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Skyeking Skyeking is offline
Posted 23rd May 2005, 05:16 PM
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Warren,

I enjoyed the pictures of your pigeons, especially the Ludo hen, direct daughter of Silver Boy, unusual posture. She is standing almost straight up.

Thanks for sharing!

Treesa



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Happy Happy is offline
Posted 23rd May 2005, 09:40 PM
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmithFamilyLoft
In all seriousness,

I question how anyone can really say they own a Bastin, Sion, or Stassart blood lines. The masters who created those birds were dead when I was a kid in the 50's. Every breeder who has selected the pairings since then, as put his mark on those birds. I venture that these old masters would not recognize the birds carrying their name.

The other point, is even if these birds were carefully selected, and line bred in individual cages over the decades, they were birds that won in the forty's and fifty's. Champions of fifty, sixty years ago, are very old news.

Champion pigeons, horses, race cars, or even humans of 20 generations ago, simply could not compete with today's champions. If that is not so, then you are saying that no improvement has been made in fifty years of selective breeding.

If the above masters were alive today, flying their birds of yesteryear, with the same system they used way back when, they would be at the bottom of the race sheet today. If you want to win today, you need to secure winning families, of today. And strive to constantly improve and refine those genes. Many a flier today, is using the same birds and methods that he used in the sixtys or 70's. They left their winning ways and past glories, in the past. Neither their birds, breeding, or methods kept up with the competition. They keep doing the same old thing, year after year, and wonder why they keep getting the same old results. You are either improving, and moving forward, or standing still. If you stand still, you will be left behind.

One more thing, the perfect racing pigeon and system, has not been developed or invented yet. Every year, I look, hope, and pray, for that one YB I raise, that will take my birds to a whole new level. In racing pigeons, good is simply not good enough. Many lofts, are packed with "good" pigeons. Now "Exceptional", "World Class", "Champions Champion", that is the stuff legends are made of.
Warren, I have always enjoyed your writtings till this one. 1st I don't think this reply of yours has much to do with the original question. But want to let you know that I did fly in the 50's, & can certainly recognize these Old Out Of Date Strains that you seem to call them that all the New Names Strains have come from. If you will look at my 1st response to the Original question you'll see that I talk of UPDATED OLDER STRAINS. You may not have heard of Ed Lorenz with his Modern day Stassarts or Art Hees (now in Fla.) with his strain of Short Face that is originally Bastin that has been updated with Verheye's, or Freddie Riveria with his 60'S & 70'S Bekaerts that have done so well in Calif. & Floridia, but would suggest ya look up there CURRENT records with these Out Of Date Strains!!!. I don't know many of your Greats in the east, but know there are super guys around there that fly the Old Strains such as HVR's that probably need NO improvement. Also you apparently don't race the long ones? I believe that the 600mi. "DAY BIRDS" of the 40's 50's etc. would be with the best you have come up with today (given the newer racing methods) at that distance!!..... I think your right that the newer strains have an advantage at the Short Races that these 300mi. $$$races, Cell Phone, Computer, Generation is turning out, but not at the 500mi. thru 600mi.. It seems to me that you might have fallen into the High Price Pigeon Sellers Syndrome. Looking for names like The Presedent, Super Champ., Silver Boy, Super Boy, Wonder Boy, & this pigeon Won this much $$$$, instead of how many races it actually was in the top 10 of the Combine/Concourse for this many yrs....... Certainly there are improvements in most all Racing Pigeons, but the best are guys that have raced every yr. Old Birds & Young Birds, & improved there birds & methods with the Races being the Judge, not how much $$$ they won in one or two Young Bird races.... Last week a guy here (50yr. Flyer) just won a 1,300ypm 470mi. race with his Hanssen, Wegge, Bekaert, Sion old family with many backups of the same family. Last yr. I won an Overall in YB's 70+ mem. 860 birds with a Bricoux, Bastin, Bekaert, Osman, Sion, etc. cross. Probably should tell her she's doesn't have a proper new generation name... I know this is a bit of sarcasim on my part, but I'm sure you know by now ya touched a nerve.... Happy
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relofts relofts is offline
Posted 24th May 2005, 12:59 AM
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Ok,

Lets see about my favorites, that is a hard one to claim. Like Happy I like some of the older proven strains, but I have found location has a lot to do with what a person does well with and flies well with.

If I were still residing in Washington state you would get me away from the Old Janssen Lines, Ganus Janssen lines, Meuleman 176 Frill, HeckenKlak, Hofkin, Witoger lines, Van Loon, Ver Bruggen, I can't really pick one in particular as it has always been a team effort and my team as a entity have done very well.

Now that I live here in California I can say that I fly the Old Janssen Line, Ganus Janssen line, Meuleman 176 Frill, Witoger, and my always faithful Witoger line, and Van Loon's which I am still prooving but so far seem to be competitive. I can't pick a single family though because like I said it depends on your location, your distances and where you want to be competive at, I myself like to fly at all distances and I like to be competitive at all distances and I find it takes a little different pigeon for the speed, the distance sometimes, as well as the weather, but a Janssen base is always a good start. I don't currently only any of the Beckert family but they have always flown very well for me in the past when we first started out as well as the Jankoski Janssens which were really nice, and then there were the Touniers that were always a good cross here in the hot valley heat with the speed races, well I guess I am not help because I am just no help with making a decission.

Lets see to describe each of the birds I have listed and from my observation.

Janssen - Speed, short, middle, some long from the original janssen lines.
Meuleman 176 - Consistant, middle, long, endurance, tough weather, dependable
Witoger - Speed, endurance, short, middle, long.
Van Loons - short, middle, consistant, endurance.
HeckenKlak - Short, middle, long, consistant, speed, endurance
Hofkin - Short, middle, consistant, crosses well into Janssen family for futurity races in the north west, when weather is not always at perfection.
Witoger 720 - Short, Middle, Long, speed, tougher race, all around pigeon and have always flown very well for us.
Beckeart - speed, short, middle, hot weather, consistant
Jankoski Janssen - speed, short, middle, hot weather, consistant
Tournier - Middle, long, speed, consistant.
Ver Bruggen - Short, middle, consistant, speed, hot weather, or tough weather, good all around pigeon.

Don't know if I missed any here but I just guess I can't make a decission like that, and besides that I know for a fact I have more lines then that in my loft, but that is the basic, I would have to include to much to cover them all, pigeons now a days have just been perfected to such an art it is unbelieveable and it is just not easy to assign a tag to any, best thing to do is find the top flyers in a area and see what they are doing well with.

A breed I can't fly is a Lean Boer, I can't even spell it let alone fly it, I never was able to get them to perform for me what so ever, you would not get me to fly them for nothing, yet other flyers swear by them, it must be in the handling.

Ellen
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SmithFamilyLoft SmithFamilyLoft is offline
Posted 24th May 2005, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy
..... I talk of UPDATED OLDER STRAINS. You may not have heard of Ed Lorenz with his Modern day Stassarts or Art Hees (now in Fla.) with his strain of Short Face that is originally Bastin that has been updated with Verheye's, or Freddie Riveria with his 60'S & 70'S Bekaerts that have done so well in Calif. & Floridia, but would suggest ya look up there CURRENT records with these Out Of Date Strains!!!..... I believe that the 600mi. "DAY BIRDS" of the 40's 50's etc. would be with the best you have come up with today (given the newer racing methods) at that distance!!..... I think your right that the newer strains have an advantage at the Short Races that these 300mi. $$$races, Cell Phone, Computer, Generation is turning out, but not at the 500mi. thru 600mi.... but the best are guys that have raced every yr. Old Birds & Young Birds, & improved there birds & methods with the Races being the Judge........ Last week a guy here (50yr. Flyer) just won a 1,300ypm 470mi. race with his Hanssen, Wegge, Bekaert, Sion old family with many backups of the same family......Last yr. I won an Overall in YB's 70+ mem. 860 birds with a Bricoux, Bastin, Bekaert, Osman, Sion, etc. cross. Probably should tell her she's doesn't have a proper new generation name... I know this is a bit of sarcasim on my part, but I'm sure you know by now ya touched a nerve.... Happy
Hello Happy !


Many good points Happy, I might suggest that Ed Lorenz, Art Hees, Freddie Riveria, the other gent you mentioned, and yourself, are flying pigeons which have backgrounds related to those long gone birds, created by the masters. But, in reality, they and you, have created your own familys, blood lines, strain, what have you.

I don't disagree with most of what you said, afterall, every pigeon alive today has ancestors that were alive in the 1800's and early 1900's. My very fine, perhaps meaningless point, is once a "family" or "strain" is placed into the hands of another breeder, it soon becomes a "Lorenz", "Hees", "Riveria" or a "Happy" bloodline. Even if very strict line breeding methods are used.

Add to this the fine points that Ellen made at RELofts. Your geography, loft management, loft, training methods, etc. etc. will have a huge impact on what bloodlines will work well for you. I dare say, that the same "family" of birds, divided up between two different lofts, at opposite ends of the country, under different management, breeding styles etc. In just a few generations, will look, feel, and perform differently. Regardless of the fact, that there were similar ancestors, certainly after 5, 10, 15 + generations, they will NOT be the same birds. Regardless what "label" was orginally placed on them, ie. Sion, 720, etc.

You may also be correct about 500 & 600 mile day birds. Good, bad, right or wrong, it is the YB races, which get the most attention, and the most participation. The "One Loft" racing concept, appears to be the future, and where the money is. Breeding the YB, which can win that single 300-400 mile race, and collect that $10,000 to $200,000+ prize is where the attention is, and going to continue to be.

My only point, if there was one, , is if you are starting out, or starting over again, go to a current winning loft and family, be it a "Lorenz" a "Hees" a "Happy" or "RELofts", etc. etc. and secure birds from a family winning today, regardless of what name was placed on their base. I want to know about the parents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grand parents etc. Not who their great-great-great-great-great-great grand father was. Who was "imported" as stock, and came from a loft who was friends with Mr. Sion etc.
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re lee re lee is offline
Posted 24th May 2005, 08:07 AM
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We will find in belg, holland and such. Birds from the past Bred by breeders that have long since passed on. The base line strain name is for gotten. The name of the current breeder doing the winning is put on the birds. BECAUSE that person developed them to continue the winning in there own fashion. And winning birds are based off just a few key birds. Foundation is choice . Training and putting the desired needs into a family line. Yes high priced birds are becoming a key to resale. AND thats BAD. why. even these high dollar birds breed birds that will not improve or win a one bird race. So responsible breeders that will only sell or give a bird that can help the next person Would be a key person to trust to go to and find birds that improve a line. Every bird today would fall in the modern program. As that bird is bred now. But is it a winner a producer of winners. THat has to be tested. AND we know sometimes. Its the sister brother of winners that are the best for breeding winners. As they carry the gene line better to produce that winner. then the winning bird does sometimes. Even a loft of lower perfomers can be improved on. Its done all the time. Its slower in the start. But years down the road it shows. So I guess alot goes to the breeder. That sticks there program out and does not get into fads. As a lot of people do. rushing out to by the next line that has been doing the current wins. But staying with the breeding line that has been working for them. Maybe falling and new advancements are just needed. In one loft there can be several family lines. And all the birds will still fall in the base line. So out crossed lines can come from the same loft too.. A big challenge today is there seems to be more elctro magnetic storms. That are causeing top birds to get lost. Nature. is a condition that ways alot into the breeding of perfomers as racers. K days. have brought large amounts of birds being lost. Or very late returns. And It takes about 3 years of testing the birds to find the breeder birds of the future. By then there race record shows what they have done. So we find it takes years to build a line of birds. And then the old saying evey one wants to win. But knowing likes a winner. kicks in. Club members start to complain about the consistant winner. Check clocks. think of ways that person is cheating. And such. Istead of relizing the person. Must be doing something right in ther program That has brought better performance to there birds. All good birds come out of a solid breeding program. And they all become that breeders line. It just takes years And the eye to sucseed. A racing homer no matter the strain is still a racer. But the breeder has put his or hers mark on it THERE makes all the difference. Best of the best. is made in your loft. Someone elses best is theres. We all help and learn through shareing of the birds. And trying to develop our line. Birds today will bring the birds of the future. Maybe not so different from past birds. But managed right at least as good. The breeder is the artist. the bird is the painting. And every good artist is remembered. and people want a good painting . No matter what the price. So old line strains live on in memory. And new lines with new names. Will become old. But remembered. Will your name be there. Its up to you. Your mark on the birds will be the stroke of the brush. And perhaps 50 years from now. people will still remember.
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relofts relofts is offline
Posted 24th May 2005, 11:58 AM
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Great Posts Everyone,

I can say that I have a family of birds that I have crossed together and given to both new flyers and friends to compete with and these birds have performed at all lofts so far, and yes they were given to them because I wanted them to be proven, problem is how long does the Sire and Dam live for after proving the family once purchased, most families of birds I find you get if actually proven are coming from a little older breeder if the entire process has been went through although you can get lucky, I purchased a 720 Witoger bird mated to a hen down from Assured Silver, Topo, Super Crack 699 and 0005 both bred from Fred Smeltzer the following year after I purchased my cock bird down from the Witoger 720 line or maybe it was the same year well anyway a brother won the Las Vegas race for Fred and this was a full brother, well mine still had to be prooven as a breeder, I flew the offspring as young birds, flew them as 1 year olds, and then as 2 year olds and all have performed exceptional, I have now bred from his youngsters and completed the same process, I have put them with different mates, I have given them to new flyers, I have given them to senior flyers to compete in their loft to see how they have performed, I then relocated to California from Washington and the process started over, and they have passed all the tests, problem is now they are both 6 years old "99" banded and it really takes a long time to proove a family of birds, you can get lucky and the person can be very good that you get them from, we were lucky and Fred Smeltzer provided us with some exceptional bred pigeons he is a very good breeder and handler of pigeons, but you know I think any family can do good if bred correctly and if the handling conditions are what that breed will respond to, not to take any credit away from Fred as he has done an exception job with the line he created, or that is my opinion.

Ellen
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