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Marsha McClelland Marsha McClelland is offline
Posted 6th June 2011, 07:30 AM
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Oh & i have been giving him vitamins, too.
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Dobato Dobato is offline
Posted 6th June 2011, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsha McClelland View Post
Any advise on the antibiotics I'm going to get?
We would usually want to go with something like Trimethoprim/Sulfa, one because it is really quite an effective antibiotic for a number of kinds of infections and two, it is a drug of choice for very young/small birds.

Good luck,

Karyn
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Marsha McClelland Marsha McClelland is offline
Posted 6th June 2011, 11:30 AM
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Erwin's antibiotic & does it deal with parasites?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobato View Post
We would usually want to go with something like Trimethoprim/Sulfa, one because it is really quite an effective antibiotic for a number of kinds of infections and two, it is a drug of choice for very young/small birds.

Good luck,

Karyn
Hi Karyn. Thank you. I just got back from the vet. I had to drive quite a way as I'm staying with my son in Portage County & I live in Summit County where I had to go to the vet that takes care of my dogs. He was very disappointing to me with the answers he gave me. He's old & already misdiagnosed my friends dog which led to death so I will be finding a new one.

He gave me Amoxiccillin but if that's not good enough & you think I should call to see if he carries this one you recommend, I'll go back. I don't think I can get it any where else unless I have an account because the new receptionist there asked me to verify I had an account.

I asked about it fighting any parasites Erwin may have gotten from those fishing worms & he said not to worry. That's not going to happen, he said. I have four to five more days to have to worry that parasites may get Erwin from the research I've done so I am going to worry. Is there anything I could be doing to ward off parasites that anyone knows of?

I told him about the air sacs & my fear of bacteria & he said to give this tiny, probably no more than ten day old, Sparrow 2 drops daily.

With the drops of water I gave him at first, & not supposed to, I'm worried about aspiration & pneumonia setting in still, too. And he said not to worry about that, either. He said to give him water. I told him I read of the danger & told him he could be no more than 10 days old & he repeated, give him drops of water & dismissed me.

I have been reading so much on Starlings for three days & now that I know he's a Sparrow, I wonder if the care would be the same for both species? Jackie's Starling site includes Sparrows but there are no specifics like there are on the Starlings.

I have to find time to read up now on Sparrows diet & care but thought you or someone else could help me short cut the studying I need to do, in the mean time.

LOL. I put him on a dish on a napkin while I changed his bedding & when I went to put him back he jumped off the plate onto my hand & scooted up my arm. I love this little guy & hope so much he doesn't get sick. I am still worried about those worms. And pneumonia. He extended his neck this morning & kept his mouth open about 30 seconds & nearly scared me to death.
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Marsha McClelland Marsha McClelland is offline
Posted 6th June 2011, 11:43 AM
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PS

I am trying to find time to take my needs for Ewin to the proper site such as Jackie's Starling site but am having a hard time. I am already a bit familiar with you here as you replied to me when others hadn't but I don't want to bee a pest when this site is not about Sparrows. I found time to read the rules at the Starling message board & had no idea of the restrictions so already I owe an apology. I found them in a Google & posted right away which broke a rule so I worry I'm on bad terms with them from the start. I'm going there as soon as I can today because I need all kinds of help besides this emergency you are helping me here with. It's time to feed Erwin.
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Dobato Dobato is offline
Posted 6th June 2011, 12:35 PM
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Marsha, first, no need to apologize for anything and in no way are you a pest, you are in exactly in the right section of this forum to ask any question you have about birds other than pigeons and doves, so there is no problems there. I recommended the Starling Talk forum because at the time you said you had identified Erwin as a Starling and they have way more knowledge there on these birds.

As I mentioned, I have no experience with Starling, but I would think that since Starling and Sparrows for requirements would be about the same, as to be when I have watched them they both seem pretty omnivorous. I would also think the same rules would apply about giving water, that these bird get their water requirements, when young, from the food their parents feed them. So as Phil has mentioned bits of juicy cherries, grapes, raspberries and blueberries should help with this, as well as feeding the kinds of food Phil suggested that have a high moisture level, sardines and such.

The Amoxicillin should be just fine, it has a wide safety margin, so pretty hard to over dose this med and is also used in young and small birds, please follow the directions you were given. I think you are doing just swell, under the circumstances.

Karyn
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pdpbison pdpbison is offline
Posted 6th June 2011, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsha McClelland View Post
Thanks for all the tips, guys. I loved seeing the pictures of the Starling, pdpbison. I'm not able to add pictures right now until my friend comes back but I agree as I looked up pictures of baby sparrows that he is one. And I would rather let the air sacs resolve themselves without popping, if I can. One is barely visible now that his feathers are covering him. I am almost ready to head out for antibiotics my vet said I could come get. He knows I have a bird & I hope he gives me the correct antibiotic & dose for the little guy. Going on five days now so I hope so much he makes it. No one would tell me anything that I called for help as they said by law they couldn't so I messed up. I gave him water & worry pneumonia will set in & the worms I gave him, I read last night I wouldn't know if he was harmed for up to 5 or 6 days. I am still frantic over this bird. Any advise on the antibiotics I'm going to get? I'll be leaving as soon as I can but it will be at leasy an hour. I was going to pick up some meal worms for him but now I won't & would like to know, considering he's a Sparrow, what can I pick up that would be good for his diet in the way of insects so he gets enough protein? I am still giving him Cesar dog food, tomatoes & apples. I gave him a blueberry this morning. I'm relieved he's not a Starling as much as having one intrigues me. I was considering the commitment & the fact I'm not in very good health so I began worrying what would happen to him if something happened to me. My family could care for a Sparrow but I don't know if they would be able to meet the constant needs of a Starling. I need to find a Sparrow forum now but in the meantime would really appreciate any further help I can get here.

Hi Marsha,


What makes you think he is sick?


And...

No more 'Tomatoes' please...that could be a bad thing, I do not know for sure, but, I would not risk it.

I have never heard of any kind of Song Birds eating Tomatoes ( which is a Nightshade or Solanaceae family of Plants and hence iffy for many Species).


The diet I mentioned worked well for many dozens of orphan Baby infant Sparrows, and, every other Song Bird like/related Baby I ever had come in, everyone thrived...


Antibiotics will not do anything to eliminate endoparasites.


This Baby is also too young for a safe use of anti-parasitic Medicines most likely, anyway.


Can you post some images of the Baby, different views, made from his own eye level instead of like before?

And, good close up images of his fresh poops?


If the Baby does need Meds which are only available in a liquid form or a powder one mizes with liquid, then, use tiny 'Bread Balls', loosely rolled tiny bits of soft Bread, no bigger than a 'BB', and, add the 'drops' of Medicine to them, and, feed those.

DO NOT GIVE THE BABY WATER OR ANY OTHER LIQUIDS IN THE MOUTH OR BEAK!!!!


Too dangerous!

Forget pnuemonia, it is going to be hours of watching them wrything and dieing and spazzing on their side, because part of one tiny drop went into their Trachia.

They do not live long enough to get an Aspiration Pnuemonia usually in these kinds of mishaps...it is like "right now" and then instant horror and anguish for however long they lay there convulsing and thrashing and gasping, till death.



Your old Vet is not up to speed on this stuff...


Best wishes!

Phil
Lv

Last edited by pdpbison; 6th June 2011 at 08:20 PM..
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Marsha McClelland Marsha McClelland is offline
Posted 6th June 2011, 08:22 PM
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Erwin is doing well


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobato View Post
Marsha, first, no need to apologize for anything and in no way are you a pest, you are in exactly in the right section of this forum to ask any question you have about birds other than pigeons and doves, so there is no problems there. I recommended the Starling Talk forum because at the time you said you had identified Erwin as a Starling and they have way more knowledge there on these birds.

As I mentioned, I have no experience with Starling, but I would think that since Starling and Sparrows for requirements would be about the same, as to be when I have watched them they both seem pretty omnivorous. I would also think the same rules would apply about giving water, that these bird get their water requirements, when young, from the food their parents feed them. So as Phil has mentioned bits of juicy cherries, grapes, raspberries and blueberries should help with this, as well as feeding the kinds of food Phil suggested that have a high moisture level, sardines and such.

The Amoxicillin should be just fine, it has a wide safety margin, so pretty hard to over dose this med and is also used in young and small birds, please follow the directions you were given. I think you are doing just swell, under the circumstances.

Karyn
I feel much better now about giving him that antibiotic. Thanks for everything, Karyn. I feel Erwin is in good hands with people like you helping in his care.
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Marsha McClelland Marsha McClelland is offline
Posted 6th June 2011, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdpbison View Post
Hi Marsha,


What makes you think he is sick?


And...

No more 'Tomatoes' please...that could be a bad thing, I do not know for sure, but, I would not risk it.

I have never heard of any kind of Song Birds eating Tomatoes ( which is a Nightshade or Solanaceae family of Plants and hence iffy for many Species).


The diet I mentioned worked well for many dozens of orphan Baby infant Sparrows, and, every other Song Bird like/related Baby I ever had come in, everyone thrived...


Antibiotics will not do anything to eliminate endoparasites.


This Baby is also too young for a safe use of anti-parasitic Medicines most likely, anyway.


Can you post some images of the Baby, different views, made from his own eye level instead of like before?

And, good close up images of his fresh poops?


If the Baby does need Meds which are only available in a liquid form or a powder one mizes with liquid, then, use tiny 'Bread Balls', loosely rolled tiny bits of soft Bread, no bigger than a 'BB', and, add the 'drops' of Medicine to them, and, feed those.

DO NOT GIVE THE BABY WATER OR ANY OTHER LIQUIDS IN THE MOUTH OR BEAK!!!!


Too dangerous!

Forget pnuemonia, it is going to be hours of watching them wrything and dieing and spazzing on their side, because part of one tiny drop went into their Trachia.

They do not live long enough to get an Aspiration Pnuemonia usually in these kinds of mishaps...it is like "right now" and then instant horror and anguish for however long they lay there convulsing and thrashing and gasping, till death.



Your old Vet is not up to speed on this stuff...


Best wishes!

Phil
Lv

He's definitely not sick, Phil. He's amazing. He gets on my hand & runs & flaps his wings at the same time up my arm like a little blur. He's so funny & curious with the way he tilts his head to look at us.

He was sick at first. He was laying on his side & his breathing was labored. He didn't chirp for 24 hours.

No one I called would advise me because they said they weren't allowed to by law so I fed him toxic fishing worms. Until the 5 to 6 days in which he could be afflicted is over, I will be very worried.

And I gave him drops of water, too, which could have harmed him as I learned after reading for 3 days. I was shocked to learn he could have gotten aspirated & ended up with pneumonia. Your version of what could have happened is horrid & I would have had a heart attack if that had happened, I'm almost sure.

I'm very glad to know I don't have to worry about pneumonia, now, so thanks for telling me.

The air sacs & bacteria that could be associated still worry me so I'm hoping the antibiotics take care of that if it's a problem.

I didn't think the antibiotics would help if he got parasites. I just hope he dodges that one & if there's anything I can do to have him checked or anything else, please let me know. 3 or 4 more days & I can stop worrying as he'll be out of danger by then.

I will post more pictures of Erwin. My friend will be back soon with his camera. I don't know how to upload pictures yet but plan to learn.

I'll post his poops, too. They are still in the sac & look very good except they don't trail off in a thread like stream as I saw in the pictures. They are more rounded as a perfect oval. Does that sound like it could be a problem, Phil? I sure hope not.

Thank you so much for telling me about the bread balls. I'll do just that. The information you just sent & the diet were very appreciated. I am learning a lot & thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Yes. My old vet is not up to par at all. He needs to retire.

Love,
Marsha
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pdpbison pdpbison is offline
Posted 6th June 2011, 09:48 PM
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Hi Marsha,


Air Sac 'balooning' would tend to be from a really bad, hard fall onto a hard surface.

There is no associaiton between Bacteria, and, Balooned Air Sacs.


He was probably feeling crappy when you found him from a bad fall, and, from dehydration.


What I was trying to say about them aspirating Water or Liquids, is that a mis-hap will tend to be fatal long before the Bird would be able to get a Pnuemonia from it...it would be fatal within seconds, minutes or sometimes an hour or two of the Bird gasping and thrashing and going into seizures INSTANLTY upon getting Liquid into their Trachia, so please remember, no Liquids of any kind into the mouths or Beaks for any of the Species of Babys or youngsters who's Parents do not give them Liquids.

These kinds of Babys in Nature, get their hydration from the foods their parents feed them, and, their reflexes and Trachial reflexes and so on are not adapted or built to handle liquids.


BlackBerries or Blueberries with the Skin, and some other fruits can make purple poops...Beets can make poops which seem to have frank blood permiating, etc...

Please skip the Tomatos though, or unless someone can positively say it is safe, I would not risk it...there are so many entirely excellent other foods to choose from, there is no point in using ones which could make troubles.

Cilantro torn into really tiny bits, is a good food for them also...as is using a small Saucer for chow times, and, making a little pile of Chlorella, some pre-soaked and cut into tiny bites Gogi-Berries, and a dab of fresh Olive Oil all seperate on different parts of the Saucer, where, one dabs the bite of food into the Olive Oil smear area, dabs it in to the powdered Chlorella, and, then pops it way back in to their little wide open Gullet for them to swallow.

Chlorella is a green Powder which has lots of Chlorophyl in it. Any Health Food Store and many have it in bulk where you can buy an ounce or two.

These Babys ( well, probably all or any Baby Birds ) either need Chlorophyl or will benifit from it regardless...it also plays a role in developing good strong Bones and Muscles.

Also very good, the Spines and Skin ( tiny bites of course ) 2-to-1 with the flesh, from Canned, Two Layer, Water Pack Sardines.


I know everyone always says use dry dog or dry cat food and soak it and so on, but I never have and all the Babys I raised did splendidly.

Most dry dog or cat foods is rancid, full of rancid fat which wil interfere with vitamin assimilations, toxic materials form the sources of the protean meal, and made from tumors and cancers and dead zoo animals and road kills and the worst garbage of the slaughterhouses, as low as say 'Hot Dogs', cooked into oblivian, ground into a fine paste, formed into whatever shapes, fake industrial nutrients added for the label brag, and, it is horrible stuff no matter what sell job the packaging has on it.

It is a horrible sopurce of 'protean' and lots of the base protean material comes form over seas anymore and is very suspect, even WORSE than the horrible garbage it used to be when produced domestically.

At least any Deep Ocean FIsh, such as Sardines, are overall quite wholesome, and, feeding the soft Spines and the Skin is very Nutritious for the omnivore Bird Baby/youngster ( Two Layer is best since the Sardines are much smaller than other arranges, thus having twice as much skin, and, smaller more tender Vertebre ).

Bugs or Insects are both Protean and Chlorophyl and possibly Sugars from Plant sourses.

So, Fish, Chlorella, and, ripe Fruits work out to about a perfect Homologue or parallel for all important nutrients/minerals.



Any long tiny Rib Bones found in the Sardines ( I never have found any in the Two Layer ), simply discard and do not feed those of course.


Ripe Cherries are excellent, as is ripe Pear...as are Goji Berries ( pre-soaked to be as full of moisture as possible ).



Phil
Lv

Last edited by pdpbison; 6th June 2011 at 09:57 PM..
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Dobato Dobato is offline
Posted 7th June 2011, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdpbison View Post
There is no associaiton between Bacteria, and, Balooned Air Sacs.
Phil, I mentioned the association with bacteria from a post I came across here on PT, while looking for a photo for Marsha of a ruptured air sac, from another member who's vet said bacteria can be a cause of this happening, although I am much more inclined to think of an injury causing this than infection.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpo...5&postcount=15

Karyn

Last edited by Dobato; 7th June 2011 at 12:44 AM..
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pdpbison pdpbison is offline
Posted 7th June 2011, 12:53 AM
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Hi Karyn, Marsha, anyone else,



Oh...well hmmmmm...okay, I understand the concern now and reason for the Antibiotics.

I wish we had something in the way of substantiation and expansion for detail and reason on that particular attribution of cause, ( for Ballooning Air Sacs in Baby Birds, ) other than that a Vet was said to have said so.

I have never heard of this, and, none of the Babys I have had in who had Balooning Air Sacs, got any meds for the condition, and I do not recall ever loosing one who had the condition, nor any who did not resolve the condition perfectly on their own, and, to grow up splendidly.

Babys or youngsters who ssurvive bad falls from high Nests can of course be a miote subdued for days or a week or more from the injuries internal and external, form the Fall itself, without there being per-se any Bacterial component at play.


Just to try thinking about this...

I do not know how a Baby who is otherwise vital and energetic and has a good appetite and who has survived a terrible fall some days or a week prior, would have a Bacterial issue effecting the 'valves' of their Respiratory system, where, the only symptom would be the 'Balooning' Air Sacs.


Can anyone contact that Vet and find out whether he could say WHAT Bacteria is supposed to do this? And, how it can do this without effecting anything else with the Bird's Respiratory System?

And, also, exactly how he came to profess/attribute that 'reason' for the Balooning Air Sac condition, while omitting entirely how a fall with a hard impact, can do it?

Was it based on attributions made in a Necropsy? Or? How did he distinguish the supposed Bacterial cause, from a bad fall being, in effect, the cause?

Does the Vet in question even know that a fall and a hard impact can do it?


Well, once doubt and worry get sewn into the Mind, I guess one has to abide by that, and, administer the Antibiotics...otherwise one would feel one is not doing the best for the Bird.



I just have to say, that this attribution seems to me to be doubtful or based on a misconstruence.


It would be nice if we could find more info about it and to be better able to judge it.

How did the Vet distinguish a Bacterial 'Balooned' Air Sac condition, from one which was caused by the hard impact of a high fall?


...or did he? ( Distinguish...)


Etc...



Love,


Phil
Lv

Last edited by pdpbison; 7th June 2011 at 01:27 AM..
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Marsha McClelland Marsha McClelland is offline
Posted 9th June 2011, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobato View Post
Phil, I mentioned the association with bacteria from a post I came across here on PT, while looking for a photo for Marsha of a ruptured air sac, from another member who's vet said bacteria can be a cause of this happening, although I am much more inclined to think of an injury causing this than infection.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpo...5&postcount=15

Karyn
Hi Karyn & Phil. Catching up here after being unable to read here for a couple days because of the outage.

I wasn't taking chances so I had to go with antibiotics & you really helped me feel confident, Karen. Even though I normally do things for my family more on the natural ways opposed to putting man made medicines or chemicals in our bodies, so that included Erwin, I thought it better to be safe than sorry.

He's doing so well I decided to stop them as of this day to be on the safe side, too.
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pdpbison pdpbison is offline
Posted 9th June 2011, 11:08 PM
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Hi Marsha,


The anti-biotics are completely fine for the Bird to be on for a while...when in doubt, best to use them just to be sure.

So, have no worries about the anti-Biotics themselves in any way taking anything away from the Bird, their system will not have been bothered by them in any way, all is well there.


So, how are the Bird's Air Sacs presently?


How are the poops?


Update images?


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas
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Marsha McClelland Marsha McClelland is offline
Posted 10th June 2011, 11:00 AM
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The air sacs are gone.

The poops are no longer in sacs & are smaller & kind of watery so I have been giving him less fruit & more dog food. Cesar dog food. Should I switch to cat food as I hear it's more nutritious?

I'm still waiting for my friend to come take pictures & he should be here by tomorrow.

And how important are insects? My Granddaughter isn't always here to catch them, mostly ants, so I worry he may need more insects to keep him healthy.

The vitamins say 2 drops in a teaspoon of water so I soak his food in that in the morning. Is that okay?

I think he's a boy because I read they chirp a lot & girls don't. His feathers are changing. They are getting white & very fluffy all around his bottom half. He's not much bigger than a half dollar & hasn't gotten much bigger than when we rescued him.

I don't know if I told you but we held him to a screen where insects gathered & he tries to get them with his tongue. He had a leg hanging out of his mouth so he's getting better at it. He actually takes the tiny strips of dog food off my finger with his tongue, sometimes, too.

I am very worried about his wanting to be free. He stares out the window & I think he's sad. Should we set him free, I wonder? Will he know how to get food? I know they only live a short time outdoors but if he'd be happy, I would set him free.

He has his own room & we are six humans who visit him often there & take his cage to other parts of the house & outdoors for variety. He flies high, now, & his room has a ceiling fan he has just accomplished reaching.

I don't want to give him up but have to do the right thing.

Thanks, Phil, for all your help.

Love,
Marsha McClelland
Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Residing in Mogadore so I can take better care of Erwin. Too hard to commute with my 2 dogs & two other birds. My place is too small & my other animals would get jealous if they saw me care for Erwin. I lost a bird that way when I hand fed baby Cockatiels someone gave me, where the parents were picking at their feathers & making them bleed, which started my breeding them. My original Cockatiel starved himself & I hadn't noticed until it was too late. I loved that bird & never saw one smarter or friendlier. He'd jump down to watch me feed the babies so I fed him a little, too. I didn't notice he wasn't eating his other food & will never make that same mistake, again.
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pdpbison pdpbison is offline
Posted 10th June 2011, 12:52 PM
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He needs sources of Chlrophyl.

The Va;lue of smal INsects lay chiefly in the contents of their INtestines, which tends to be about Chlrophyl.

Lacking fresh live and appropriate kinds of INsects to feed, one does well to simply augment the diet with viable sources of Chlorophyl directly.

Fresh Cilntro torn into TINY bits, Chlorella ( any Health Food Store )...can procide some.

And, he needs Protean of course, and all of the dry dog or cat foods are going to be made from tumors and decaying rotting carcases of downer and diseased animals and road kill and so on and are full of pesticide and drug toxins and are totally unwholesome and fairly toxic to a Bird's system, and are made from horrible ingredients and sold with fake deceptive labelling.


Small Berries which are high in antioxidents are good, for which Goji Berries ( any Health Food Store ) are about perfect...one cuts them into tiny bites, pre-soaks them, and, feed them to the Bird.

Small Saucer - put a little fresh new Bottle Olive Oil on one area, put some powdered Chlorella in another...have a little bunch of prepared torn into tiny bits of fresh Cilantro...have some two layer, water pack, canned Sardines in another spot, favoring the skins and Spine Vertabre...some fresh ripe Cherries or Apple or Apricot cut into teeeny bits.

Take a bit of food, dab it into the Olive Oil, dab that into the Chlorella, and pop it into their Gullet when they gape.

He will know how to hunt Bugs and manage fine with that once he is old enough and flying well and so on.


They are normally a little bored or wistful at times at this age no matter their situation, since they are dependent on their parents for being fed, and, can not fly yet.

So they sit and watch and day dream or find things to be entertained with.


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv

Last edited by pdpbison; 10th June 2011 at 06:44 PM..
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