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Jay3 Jay3 is offline
Posted 18th June 2015, 06:19 AM
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I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to get you to see that it is not always so cut and dry. You can't put human emotions on animals. They don't function or think as we do. They live in the moment. They don't think about the things they will miss if they go. The problem is that when you give human emotion and thoughts to animals, then you aren't thinking about what is best for the animal. You are thinking that life, no matter what kind of life is always better. That isn't always true. That's all I am saying. I have seen people who may have a dog with cancer, who is in a lot of pain, but they won't euthanize, as they feel the way you do. So the animal suffers, and lays around in pain with no quality of life whatsoever, when it could have been gently put to sleep and it's pain ended. Going to die anyway, so why not take it a little sooner and avoid the pain and suffering. That is a human feeling, that hanging on to life, no matter what the circumstances, is the best and only way. I am just saying that it isn't always that easy. Sometimes not being is better. There are many people also, who when suffering with a disease, choose to end it sooner, rather than to drag it out. They make the decision that going is better. Those people who ask their doctors how long they have to live, usually mean "how long will I have quality of life?". There are 2 sides to the argument. The thing is in thinking it through and figuring out which is better. Not always easy.
Anyway, we can't know how well he will be or he will heal, or if he can live a fairly normal life. Can't make that decision until you know. There are 2 sides to be looked at. Sometimes life is better...............sometimes not. But don't put human feelings and emotions on an animal. Even humans do not always choose life. I at least believe that when euthanizing stops or prevents useless pain and suffering, that it is better. Knowing when is sometimes the difficult part.
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Last edited by Jay3; 18th June 2015 at 06:40 AM..
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cwebster cwebster is offline
Posted 18th June 2015, 08:24 AM
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Agree with kiddy, it is a complex issue. I still would prefer to help rather than euthanize. Living things fight very hard to live. Life is precious. I work in a prison, about half the people have life terms. They have to not only come to terms with what bad things they have done but also with the life sentences. Most find ways to become better people, to give back somehow, and to learn to be happy even without their freedom. Some do not. Even with a serious illness diagnosis, most people want to try to maximize the life they have. All life is eventually terminal...but why rush the inevitable if there are ways to make life as meaningful and happy as it can be? Just a few thoughts... Life is really hard with our complex brains! still think most disabled birds would prefer to be safe and well fed if kept busy and entertained, rather than just euthanized or killed by a predator in a short brutal life. It is hard because we can't ask them. But we can watch their reactions and infer whether they are still enjoying life.
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Jay3 Jay3 is offline
Posted 18th June 2015, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by cwebster View Post
Agree with kiddy, it is a complex issue. I still would prefer to help rather than euthanize. Living things fight very hard to live. Life is precious. I work in a prison, about half the people have life terms. They have to not only come to terms with what bad things they have done but also with the life sentences. Most find ways to become better people, to give back somehow, and to learn to be happy even without their freedom. Some do not.

Again, you guys are comparing humans to animals, and putting human emotions on the animals. Can't do that, because their feelings and emotions are not the same.
How can you decide that all animals would prefer to go on, no matter what their injury or their pain, or their quality of life, or lack of it? How can you know that they would prefer to live in pain, or simply exist, or keep being put through a lot of treatment for something? You can't possibly know that either. That is where the trying to weigh and measure to make that decision comes in. Not all black or white.


Even with a serious illness diagnosis, most people want to try to maximize the life they have.

Again, that depends on the quality of that life, and the pain and suffering involved, and their situation, which can add or subtract from that quality. Many people choose to just die, rather than to go through more pain and suffering, and more treatments. Sometimes it just isn't worth it. Better to just go and avoid more suffering, especially when the quality will no longer be there. If more states allowed people to just take a pill and go, more would do it. Patients on hospice are often allowed that choice, but it just isn't talked about.

All life is eventually terminal...but why rush the inevitable if there are ways to make life as meaningful and happy as it can be? Just a few thoughts... Life is really hard with our complex brains! still think most disabled birds would prefer to be safe and well fed if kept busy and entertained, rather than just euthanized or killed by a predator in a short brutal life.

What makes you think that most disabled birds are safe and well fed, and kept busy and entertained? In the real world that is not usually the reality. Are you really living in such a perfect world?
I feel that when they are either physically or mentally suffering, and the quality of life is just not there, then they would probably rather not be. Remember that animals live in the now, in the moment. When that now is no longer worth it, how do you know that they want to live it?

It is hard because we can't ask them. But we can watch their reactions and infer whether they are still enjoying life.

What do you do when you feel that they are not still enjoying life? Nothing?
It depends greatly on where you are coming from, and your life experiences how you view life, and the quality of that life, and death.
Sometimes it is not quantity, but quality that counts.
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Last edited by Jay3; 18th June 2015 at 11:33 AM..
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cwebster cwebster is offline
Posted 18th June 2015, 12:39 PM
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When I try to help a disabled creature, I do everything I can to maximize the quality of his/her life and watch very carefully to see how they are reacting, that they are feeling as happy as they can be in the moment. I provide the most entertaining environment I can. I can't speak for others and what they do. Like I said, if they seem to be unhappy, I release them if I can (like Crowsy) or keep them in captivity if I can give them a good life (like Phoebe and Fiona pigeons). If they are too ill to help I have them euthanized (as I have done with countless pets when their suffering could no longer be helped). I am done with this thread because I see no point in people countering things I suggest. I know you will do as your philosophy and life circumstances dictate.
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Jay3 Jay3 is offline
Posted 18th June 2015, 01:52 PM
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At the beginning of this thread I had said that euthanizing might be the kinder thing to do if he isn't releasable, and doesn't have what he needs to survive in the world.
It was you and Kiddy who came in and disagreed with me. That is fine, as everyone has a right to their opinion. But I believe we were both countering each others opinion with our different points of view.I just don't think that people are always realistic. A wild sparrow would not be happy in a cage for life, and wouldn't do well. Anyway, we don't yet know how well he will be yet.
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Posted 18th June 2015, 04:46 PM
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Sorry Jay, in my first post in this thread I said I agree with spirit wings, I didn't say I disagree with you.
You said "you and kiddy came in and disagreed with me"
I respect your opinion too and I learn a lot from you, it is just probably I am high at emotional level so I think much of everyone's emotions even if it is an animal.
So I never think, animals think for a moment. I may consider this if science gets so advanced and research on their brains like with brain mapping or any other technique so then I may think another way. I totally understand you never have a choice of euthanasia until you have some hope and I respect you for that. Everyone has got his likes and dislikes and I don't like euthanasia because these days every other vet there is practicing this , also many rehabs. They don't even think of first aid, they just find it easy to put them to sleep so I started disliking it even more.
I am sorry if anything offensive from my side.

Cwebster : it is so nice that I see a new cwebster today. Earlier I knew only one very calm, caring and emotional
Now as you ended up this thread being annoyed I add a quality to you but it is very rare and exceptional one from you to remember.
You found Jay countering your suggestions this time or Jay can find you countering or even me but actually we were only putting our points, nothing to be offended pls, difference of opinions and good conversations make us learn a lot. I find Jay helping people many times contributing numerous posts to this site for helping birds. This seems that our emotions for birds are same, all of us want to save them as priority but if nothing in hand Jay can go for other alternate while I cannot. That's difference in heart. May be I am weak as spirit wings said.
So when our motives are same, just put some smile on your face and forgive everyone including me if you find or feel anything wrong.
It is so good that we all care for birds so much we can talk for such long time about birds
Keep helping them always

Last edited by kiddy; 18th June 2015 at 05:04 PM..
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Jay3 Jay3 is offline
Posted 18th June 2015, 05:46 PM
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Kiddy, I agree that too many choose euthanasia too quickly. Some vets have suggested euthanasia for a simple canker infection. That isn't right either. Those people don't put enough value on another creatures life. Nothing offensive from your side. I don't think you could ever be offensive. We all have reasons why we view things as we do. I think it's interesting hearing from different sides of the same argument.
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Last edited by Jay3; 18th June 2015 at 05:49 PM..
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Posted 18th June 2015, 06:12 PM
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Yes I do agree with you this time
And thank you
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Posted 19th June 2015, 06:41 AM
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Howard, have you tried the millet? Has he eaten anything yet?
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Howard Nye Howard Nye is offline
Posted 19th June 2015, 01:49 PM
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Sparrow Almost Certainly Releasable; being Rehabbed at Wildlife


Hi all,

Sorry for not updating earlier. I was able to get the sparrow seen by my vet (who helps run our Wildlife rehab center here) on Tuesday. My vet examined the sparrow and confirmed that she most likely has a minor collar-bone fracture which simply needs a bit more time to heal. Our Wildlife rehab center actually has a great set-up for rehabbing sparrows; it cares for many of them, and is able to move them to larger and larger enclosures as they recover. My vet told me that she is virtually certain that the sparrow will be releasable (the sparrow actually has significant flying ability; she just needs more recovery time to sustain her lift. According to my vet, even much more injured sparrows are typically releasable after some time). So the sparrow has been transferred to our Wildlife rehab center. Although, as I said, my vet is virtually certain that the sparrow will be releasable, she did tell me that, if anything goes wrong and she isn't, they will call me and I'll have the opportunity to adopt her.

I have five formerly feral, non-releasable birds - including two mated pairs. I don't keep them in cages; they have their own "bird room" in my home (formerly the master bedroom), in which I have their territories separated by screens and baby gates (to prevent certain of them from fighting). They all have very rich, wonderful lives. I'm sure that caring for a sparrow with moderate flying ability would add some complication, but I'd do my best to get her as big a territory as possible, and I'd ask my vet to be on the lookout for any other non-releasable sparrows so I could find a mate for her (as I've done with my other birds).

I strongly agree with cwebster and kiddy. With all due respect, I find it extremely implausible (I'm almost tempted to say 'ridiculous') to think that simply living in a smaller environment is worse than no life at all. There is a well developed literature on psychological adjustment to disability, and there is every reason to think that the same mechanisms are in play with non-human animals - e.g. dogs happily adjusting to life with 3 legs, happy kittens born with two legs, etc., etc. At the very end of life, death may be better than uncontrollable physical suffering. But simply living life in a smaller environment - especially after hedonic adaptation, and with good friends, good food, and room to bathe, build, and play - is absolutely nothing like experiencing uncontrollable physical suffering at the end of life.

Thanks very much,
Howard
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cwebster cwebster is offline
Posted 19th June 2015, 09:01 PM
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Am so glad the sparrow is likely to recover and that you will take him if he's nonreleasable. Bless you.
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Posted 19th June 2015, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Nye View Post
Hi all,

Sorry for not updating earlier. I was able to get the sparrow seen by my vet (who helps run our Wildlife rehab center here) on Tuesday. My vet examined the sparrow and confirmed that she most likely has a minor collar-bone fracture which simply needs a bit more time to heal. Our Wildlife rehab center actually has a great set-up for rehabbing sparrows; it cares for many of them, and is able to move them to larger and larger enclosures as they recover. My vet told me that she is virtually certain that the sparrow will be releasable (the sparrow actually has significant flying ability; she just needs more recovery time to sustain her lift. According to my vet, even much more injured sparrows are typically releasable after some time). So the sparrow has been transferred to our Wildlife rehab center. Although, as I said, my vet is virtually certain that the sparrow will be releasable, she did tell me that, if anything goes wrong and she isn't, they will call me and I'll have the opportunity to adopt her.

I have five formerly feral, non-releasable birds - including two mated pairs. I don't keep them in cages; they have their own "bird room" in my home (formerly the master bedroom), in which I have their territories separated by screens and baby gates (to prevent certain of them from fighting). They all have very rich, wonderful lives. I'm sure that caring for a sparrow with moderate flying ability would add some complication, but I'd do my best to get her as big a territory as possible, and I'd ask my vet to be on the lookout for any other non-releasable sparrows so I could find a mate for her (as I've done with my other birds).

I strongly agree with cwebster and kiddy. With all due respect, I find it extremely implausible (I'm almost tempted to say 'ridiculous') to think that simply living in a smaller environment is worse than no life at all. There is a well developed literature on psychological adjustment to disability, and there is every reason to think that the same mechanisms are in play with non-human animals - e.g. dogs happily adjusting to life with 3 legs, happy kittens born with two legs, etc., etc. At the very end of life, death may be better than uncontrollable physical suffering. But simply living life in a smaller environment - especially after hedonic adaptation, and with good friends, good food, and room to bathe, build, and play - is absolutely nothing like experiencing uncontrollable physical suffering at the end of life.

Thanks very much,
Howard

Thanks so much Howard, it is really good morning for me today after reading your post. You made my day and I mean it. If you had posted your thoughts earlier and things that you adopted 5 non releasable pigeons, I would have no doubt in sparrow's good life no matter how disabled the sparrow was. I just wanted to say that even handicapped has right to live, just because they can't fly, nobody has a right to take their life. People have got their own levels of thoughts, some quit with no hopes but some loose their hopes sooner. And so because of their hopelessness many vets and rehabs are euthanising birds thinking they won't make it, even many are euthanasing them if non releasable. Their is no law of euthanasia which should be as it is a matter of life. It won't hurt seeing if the critter was in severe pain close to death suffering badly and we took off his pain putting him to sleep but it really hurts seeing a non releasable or some time babies misplaced from nests etc in such situations people are going for euthanasia and vets and rehabs easily do it, tho on pt nobody suggest the same . still we have so many examples from posters.
Hope everyone understand importance of others lives as they understand of themselves.
Thanks a ton for helping him and do update his status even if delayed. Thanks so much

Last edited by kiddy; 19th June 2015 at 09:12 PM..
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