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shelby72 shelby72 is offline
Posted 21st November 2005, 02:27 AM
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amoxicillin dosage by mouth


A couple of weeks ago I had 54 pigeons and now I only have 22 still alive. 3-4 have been dying every day now. I took a sick one to a veterinarian hospital a week ago, but they haven't gotten back in touch with me yet. My pigeons have green slimy poop. They puff up and just stand around with their heads hanging down. I have some amoxicillin that belongs to my husband. It's 875 mg and I only have 3 tablets. I was told that I could mix it with some water, but I would rather give it to them by mouth to ensure that they all get it, and because I do not want them going back into the loft. How do I give this to them by mouth? What is the correct dosage? I have racing homers, Old German Owls, and Brunner Pouters and I do not know their weight.

Shelby
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Pigeonpal2002 Pigeonpal2002 is offline
Posted 21st November 2005, 02:52 AM
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Hi Shelby,

I'm terribly sorry to hear that you're losing so many birds a day I don't think the amoxicillan pills of your husband will work because it'll be too difficult to divide up the pills into a proper dose per bird. As well, you will need more than 3 pills for 22 pigeons in order to give them the full course duration of the medication.

Can you tell us where you are located? We may have some members nearby that would be willing to ship you some amoxicillan or baytril.

Have you tried any of the pigeon supply outlets, such as Foys or Siegels? They will carry all the meds there you would need.

It's also important to know what you are treating for rather than administering antiboitics indiscriminately.
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Skyeking Skyeking is offline
Posted 21st November 2005, 08:14 AM
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Hello and Welcome to Pigeons.com

I'm so sorry about the deaths in your coop. You really do need a diagnosis so you can get the approrpriate drug and target the disease, rather then try something that may or may not work at this stage of the game. Call them today and force the issue or find another avian vet.

Also, I would get the birds on garlic, Apple Cider Vinegar, and Probiotics, if they are not getting that already.

Make sure the coops are thoroughly cleaned and water and feeding dishes are sanitized and washed daily.

Here are some resources:

http://aav.org/vet-lookup/

http://www.pigeons.com/prd.htm

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/contactA.htm#il



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Last edited by Skyeking; 22nd November 2005 at 05:21 AM..
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upcd upcd is offline
Posted 21st November 2005, 09:27 AM
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Welcome


To Pigeon Talk and sorry about the lost of you birds. You must be heartbroken. Green watery poop could PMV or Parathyriod. They make a vaccine for these diseases. Your amox. would have to go into 8 oz of water. But you could be underdosing. Who is to tell how much each pigeon took. It is best to do by mouth. Some meds a given 2- 3xs a day. When you say heads are down. Do they look like they are twisting around. Seperate anybody that is sick. Keep them warm with food and water. Check if they are eatin and drinking. You may need to help them. PRESS that VET. For some answers.Clean Loft of all poop and disinfect with bleach and water and let dry before birds go back in. and repeat every 3 days until better. 1 part bleach to 3 parts water. Pigeons have these diseases in thier bodies and stress can bring them out. Breeding, weather, new birds,flying outside,moulting.
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Last edited by upcd; 21st November 2005 at 09:31 AM..
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Pidgey Pidgey is offline
Posted 21st November 2005, 09:45 AM
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shelby72,

I'll give you a direct quote about Amoxicillin right out of the biggest, most comprehensive avian veterinary book ever published:

"Palatable and easy to administer but rarely effective against the bacterial organisms that affect birds."
Avian Medicine: Principles and Application, p. 458

Also, in the formulary the dosage for pigeons is given at 150 mg/kg QID. That means that you'd give a 2.2 pound bird one-sixth of one of those pills you've got and you'd do it for that one bird four times a day. If we assume that your birds are more likely from 1/4 to 1/2 of a kilogram, or from 1/2 to 1 pound each (figure an average of 3/4 of a pound) then you've got enough medicine to treat all of them for a little over half of a day with the likelihood that the medicine will be completely useless against the illness that they've got.

As to that, there aren't many diseases that will take out an entire loft in the way that you describe. My first thought would be an enteric form of Salmonellosis, normally called Paratyphoid, and a virulent form at that. Baytril (technically Enrofloxacin) or its human equivalent Cipro (Ciprofloxacin) would be the medications of choice to use against that.

It's possible that you can get on the phone with your veterinary hospital and strongarm them into providing you with a prescription for the Cipro that you can pick up at any pharmacy. Otherwise, they may be willing to sell you some Orbax pills (it's another form of Baytril) or even some Baytril. There are many forms and you need to find out exactly which one you're getting so that you can get the dosage correct because in this circumstance, you don't have any time whatsoever to mess around. Even with immediate treatment, I'd consider you lucky to save a dozen.

Nothing else comes to mind besides some viruses that there is no treatment for once they begin to present symptoms. For instance, Newcastle Disease is a paramyxovirus that can kill a flock like that. There are vaccines for its prevention but it's just too late if that's what it is.

As to what else you can do, you can get the birds under a strong heat source like a heat lamp but in such a way that they can get out from under it if they need to cool off a bit. That can buy you some time because their immune systems start shutting down when their body temperature starts going down. Given warmth, they will rebound a little.

Best of luck,

Pidgey
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shelby72 shelby72 is offline
Posted 22nd November 2005, 01:18 AM
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I found out yesterday from the veterinarian hospital that my birds have Protozoa and worms. My local vet tried to get in touch with a doctor at that hospital to get some information so that he could get the right medications for me, but is still waiting for them to call him back. Hopefully, I'll be able to get ahold of something today. Exactly what is protozoa? I heard it was some kind of parasite. How do they get that? Is it something that can live in the ground and infect other animals? Will bleaching the loft sterilize it? What medications do I need?

Shelby
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Pigeonpal2002 Pigeonpal2002 is offline
Posted 22nd November 2005, 01:37 AM
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Hi Shelby,

I'm glad to hear you got some confirmation of things from your vet's office, you won't need antibiotics then going by these results.

The two protozoan parasites that are common in pigeons are canker (trichamoniasis) and Cocci (Coccidiosis). Canker usually affects the mouth or throat linings but can surface in any place in the body. The cocci normally infects the intestines and gut.

Have you looked to see if your birds have clear, pink, substance free throats? Canker is spread in the water drinkers. So make sure you clean these with bleach every day. As well, you can add ACV to their water every couple of days, 2 tablespoons to the galon.

Worms can be deadly for sure, depending on the kind and the severity of infestation. Worm eggs are VERY hard to destroy through loft cleaning. So, the birds will need to be treated for these for a period of time. Try to get confirmation on the type they have.

There are lots of medications on the market for worms, canker and cocci. Have you checked out any of the pigeon houses yet? Perhaps you could get some products priority mailed to you if one is closer to you than another.

Here is the resource link to the various pigeon houses in the USA:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

Last edited by Pigeonpal2002; 22nd November 2005 at 01:41 AM..
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pdpbison pdpbison is offline
Posted 22nd November 2005, 02:07 AM
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Hi Shelby72,

Can you say what kind of Water they have been drinking? Tap Water? Well Water? Or...? and is it a large dish that gets refilled as needed, or is it scrubbed and sanitized say every other day or so?

Anyway, if a common Water Bowl, there are dangers which can only be lessened if one really scrubs it daily...and refills with only the best most pure water one can get...if need be, one may Boil large Pots of water in advance, and use that.

'Protozoans' does not really tell us much...Birds will have s-o-m-e background level of some kinds of protozoans normally, and some kinds of protozoans are disease entities for them, such as the Trichomona mentioned in Brad's post.

Trichomoniasis in my experience will tend to show it's presence in yellow chaulky 'paint' like poops, or mixed in where the white should be. It sometimes shows itself also as little small yellowish 'cottage cheesse kurd' looking things in the Bird's throat.

This is a common illness, and I will venture to suppose your Vet is not familiar with illnesses of Pigeons per-se.

Boiled Water in a well scrubbed and bleached Bowl...or 'purified water' from one of those water stores would be a good idea at this point I think.

To a Gallon of this Water, you may add one and one half Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar, and it will help them in a general way to slow the reproduction of many undiserable bacteria or other things in their systems.

Later, after a week say, reduce this to one tablespoon to the Gallon of water for their drinking Water.

As Brad mentions also, find a way to keep them warm and out of any drafts or winds and so on...they will benifit importantly from being warm now...

If need be, if they are in an un-inclosed outside loft or pen, bring them inside and put them in cardboard boxes open at the tops and large enough for an electric heating pad to be on the bottom with enough room aside from it for a couple Birds to be off the heating pad if they like, or to be on it...drape a light cloth over the top of the carton or box.

You can get electric heating pads at a drug store for like five dollars each or less.

Try and get a definitive test of their poops to establish whether it is Coccidiosis which is vexing them, or, Aspirgillosis or some enteric problem of some other kind like Salmonella.

Campylobacter I believe can vex them sometimes but I do not know the symptoms...

Trichomoniasis ( a protozoan disease, ) should be an easy test for a Vet with a Lab...but do check some of their throats in a stong light and see for yourself if anything in there to suggest it...as with seeing if you notice any 'flat yellow paint' looking poops...

Are they breathing with open Beaks?

I am so sorry you are having to confront so terrible a situation...

Best wishes for some solutions, and fast...

Phil
Las Vegas
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Pidgey Pidgey is offline
Posted 22nd November 2005, 06:00 AM
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Well, I wouldn't expect worms and protozoa (usually trichomonads; infestation which causes disease is called "trichomoniasis") to cause them to start dying by the numbers that fast. I'd still suspect that you'd have something else going on.

But, anyhow, Ivomec (Ivermectin) for the worms and Metronidazole (FishZole, Flagyl) for the protozoa. There are several more anti-protozoals that you can get with various tradenames but the Metronidazole is probably the most attainable as you can get it marketed as "FishZole" from any pet store with aquarium supplies and sometimes feedstores. They should come in 250 mg tablets and you can quarter the tablets and put two pieces down each bird a day. Trichomonads, by the way, are one-celled organism with flagellae (long, whiplike filaments used to propel the organism).

If you check at the same pet store, you may find that they carry a version of Ivomec (Ivermectin) because it's often used for other small animals. You have to get the dosage right so it will take some research. Hopefully, your vet can take care of that.

But, again, you would expect deaths from those two causes to come more willy-nilly. And Trichomoniasis usually affects young birds. It's not uncommon to have an entire loft of old birds (older than six months) where they've all got the protozoa but don't present any symptoms. It's usually the nestlings that die from the problems in that case, otherwise you wouldn't know.

Worms are hard to predict. What you'd usually notice with roundworms (Ascaridia columbae) would be some birds would be trying to eat a lot, then throwing up and eating like pigs again, all the time losing weight and getting thinner and thinner. With threadworms (Capillaria) you might notice the feces tainted red because of the presence of blood (but that's not the only reason for bloody feces--enteritis from E. coli, paratyphoid, etc. can also do that).

Pidgey

Last edited by Pidgey; 8th April 2006 at 08:35 PM..
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pdpbison pdpbison is offline
Posted 22nd November 2005, 02:06 PM
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Hi Pidgey,


But the Salmonella can take them down quickly, 'out of the the blue', seemingly...and in numbers I believe, especially in crowded conditions, yes?

For some reason I was feeling suspicious of the Water as being involved, either the Water itself as such, or being a common Water bowl from which all the Birds drink, and some of the Birds will have bowell movements into maybe...thus tainting it for the others...or just dampness generally in the loft or coop...

And or if they all feed from the floor, where infected droppings fall...

Lofts or Pens or Coops have their liabilities...


Phil
Las Vegas

Last edited by pdpbison; 22nd November 2005 at 02:11 PM..
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Pidgey Pidgey is offline
Posted 22nd November 2005, 03:08 PM
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Yes, Phil, it can.

You have to understand that Paratyphoid as we know it isn't just one disease. It might be the same variety of pathogen (Salmonella Typhimurium var. Copenhagen) but that only narrows it down a little as a practical matter. This specific bug here might kill 'em all within a few weeks and that one there might cause them to get wing and leg arthritis/boils (which will kill a feral because it loses the ability to fly or walk but that's a different thing), another will cause CNS (Central Nervous System) signs resembling PMV (that'll kill 'em, too, if they can't eat, drink, fly, etc but it's STILL not the same thing) and still another can cause massive damage to the eyes (I don't need to say it this time, right?).

Did I mention that it can also just cause organ failure or a nasty enteritis similar to Montezuma's Revenge in us? That really knocks you off your feet and thus it can do the same to them. They can even motor along slowly with a form that is agonizingly slow in its progression--it can take weeks or months before the arthritis/organ degradation/whatever brings them to their knees.

So that's why it's more-often-than-not extremely difficult to know that it's Paratyphoid, because it presents in so many different ways and it's not a simple thing to isolate (conclusively prove in the lab). Anyhow, when they start dropping like flies, it's one of the few suspects that can do that. And, in such a case, if it's Paratyphoid, it will be one of the most virulent strains that can break through the mucosal barrier of the alimentary canal on its own.

Want to know a real kicker? Salmonella can even shift to the L-form that is not affected by antibiotics like our wonderful Baytril. Many antibiotics attack the cell membrane of bacteria and the L-form of a bacteria is a spheroplast or protoplast version. That means that they either have a limited cell wall (think of the continents scattered on the face of the earth with oceans over the rest) or there's no cell wall at all--just the protoplasm surrounding the nucleus. Frankly, I don't know what causes that shift in form as my knowledge of microbiology is, in a word, rudimentary, but it does happen and many antibiotics are of little use when it does as I understand it.

Bactrim (Trimethoprim/Sulfa), on the other hand, is a bacteriostatic and interferes with the reproductive function of the bacteria. It doesn't kill it, it just keeps it from dividing. As such, the immune system can take them on and reduce their numbers down to a manageable level more easily. In that case, the battle is won in the nucleus of the bacteria, not the cell wall where many antibiotics fight it by trying to pop the bag.

Pidgey

Last edited by Pidgey; 22nd November 2005 at 03:23 PM..
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naturegirl naturegirl is offline
Posted 26th November 2005, 10:19 AM
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I was at my vet yesterday and we had a discussion on both Psyticosis and Conjuctivitis. She said that a couple of the symptoms were lethargy and bright green poop. If you haven't done so already, you might want to contact your vet ASAP. As far as the amoxicillin goes, I'd speak to your vet first.

Naturegirl and Natureboy
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shelby72 shelby72 is offline
Posted 28th November 2005, 03:32 AM
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The Veterinary Diagnostic Center just sent me a form on the diagnosis of my pigeons. It says that they have severe intestinal parasitism - worms and Protozoa. It says that the nematodes may respond to ivermectin or similar anthelminics. The description says the the bird was thin. Red-fluid cloacal contents were evacuated at the time of death. Intestinal contents were fluid and red-tinged as well.

The vet gave me some oral ivermectin for the worms and some metronidazole for the protozoa. I managed to save 14 birds out of 54, and they are doing fine now since I've been giving them the medicine.

Phil, I've been giving them tap water in a water container that I bought from Foy's Pigeon Supply. I tried to keep it clean, but I wasn't scrubbing and sanitizing it everyday. That may have been what caused the problem.

Shelby
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upcd upcd is offline
Posted 28th November 2005, 04:29 AM
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Unhappy

Many things


can spread dieases. Poop, water,feed, bugs. Poop is everywhere in the coop they walk on it and spread it everywhere. Must be cleaned as much as possible when infection is present. Water must be clean. Container needs to be cleaned everyday with bleach and water. And put where they can't poop in it. Feed, one ever notes if mice ran across it at the seed mill. And to find out if it is moldy you need to smell or taste it. Feed has to be fed without it getting poop in it and swept up if they spread it around on the ground. Bugs, sometime pigeons get flies and lice and mite. They bite an infected bird then they bite a healthy bird. And there you go disease has spread. New birds can bring in disease too! Visiting others birds and not washing our hands or not changing clothes and shoes or cleaning our cars or cages if we have transported any birds.
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Last edited by upcd; 28th November 2005 at 04:32 AM..
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Skyeking Skyeking is offline
Posted 28th November 2005, 05:22 AM
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Hi Shelby,

I'm so sorry to hear you had to lose so many pigeons before diagnosis was made.

But I'm glad you finally did get the complete diagnosis and have saves 15 birds.

You may want to start a regular maintenance and prevention program so that you won't have to go thru such a tragedy again.

I treat my birds annually for worms as well as other parasites. My husband cleans the coop every two days, and uses a disinfectant spray. I also clean and disinfect waterers daily and clean feeders, and the feeders have guards on them. A good nutrtion and prevention program implamented can up immune system response. Weekly doses of ACV, probiotics, & garlic has tremendous health effects.

Thank you for updating us, and please continue to ask questions as needed.



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