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Caliandra Caliandra is offline
Posted 28th August 2007, 07:03 PM
Join Date: Aug 2007
Country: United States
Location: texas
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HELP.. Pidgie with paramyxovirus!


I recently rescued a pigeon that was being attacked by others. I called him bonk because he had a tendency to fly into the windows of the cinema. I live in Texas.

I began researching his symptoms and they seem to match the paramyxovirus, but I'm extremely worried. I've read he can be pulled through, but my mom has exotics at her house, and dad has been visiting her, but currently living in the house here with me. He is afraid that it might be an all species strain of Newcastle's and that he might have taken it to mom's birds. She has a severe macaw, eclectus, umbrella cockatoo, some cockatiels, some parakeets, and some canaries..

I'd like to know what you think. I've been hand feeding and watering bonk off and on. He tries to eat on his own..

Here are the signs I've noticed. Stars match the symptoms of paramyxovirus..

Head dives off to left when he tries to peck up food *
slight shivering (could be because it's not hot in the house)*
One leg seems "hurt", it collapsed when he landed (paralysis?)
Frequently holds head slightly tilted
not active, sits still most of the time*
somewhat fluffed feathers*
doesn't appear to see well out of his left eye.. (which would explain his right eye constantly facing the food..

He doesn't have a lot of head spasms unless he's struggling with me as I'm trying to water him or feed him, and he has Some spasms when trying to eat, but mainly his movements are just a swoop to the left and jerking back to examine the food. He could fly quite well, but couldn't land because of his leg. I don't feel anything broken and he did walk on it without a limp, but one leg always collapses
he has pretty good balance, considering what appears to be nerve or brain damage. He sits on my shoulder sometimes.
He does appear to see sometimes from his right eye.. sometimes you move and he jerks and sometimes you move and he doesn't seem to see anything. Dad suspects permanent blindness in the left eye and I think that the brain damage or nervous damage causes his vision to go wonky. I'm not sure.

I'd like some opinions on what to do.

1 I'm worried about infecting mom's parrots.. is it likely that dad's walking around where the pigeon does will carry the disease? I clean up everything he poops on or in, he doesn't do more than in his cage or on the floor next to where he is sitting. I keep up with it, to make sure it doesn't make a mess..
2 I'm worried about the other pigeons. I rescued him from the cinema and the others all seem fine. They were beating up on him though, pecking him viciously in the neck and not allowing him to eat..
3 Is he likely to pull through? I've been feeding him quite bit, along with watering him and offering him different nuts and seeds and soft foods. He has been drinking the extremely diluted gatorade mix from the dropper, but he can't seem to see the water bowl to drink for himself..

any tips or opinions are desperately wanted. If you live in Texas and can afford to take him in, contact me. I don't know if I can keep him much longer, what with mom's birds at risk and me not having a lot of time or money to devote to him. I feed him every day when I get home from work, and he seems to be doing well, but I'd much rather someone who knows what they're doing take him in..
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TAWhatley TAWhatley is offline
Posted 28th August 2007, 07:42 PM
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Location: Lake Forest, CA, USA
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Hi Caliandra and welcome to Pigeon-Talk! Thank you for taking in this needy pigeon. The symptoms do sound like PMV but could also be due to trauma or paratyphoid.

If it is PMV, it is very unlikely that anything could be transmitted to your Mom's parrots. The PMV strains are fairly species specific, and as long as you are being super careful about your hygiene, I doubt there will be a problem.

Terry



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Caliandra Caliandra is offline
Posted 28th August 2007, 09:01 PM
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Location: texas
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Thanks for the welcome and the advice! There were so many sites that gave different views.. I couldn't really figure it out.

I would like to know if what I'm doing is right. I didn't know about warming the pij first, but I cuddled him alot before I fed him, so I think my body heat warmed him..

I have been feeding a mixture of black sunflower seeds and baby chicken feed (I have it because I raise mealworms for my and my mom's bearded dragons). I've also been giving him pieces of nuts, (cashew, peanut), and using soaked cat food too. I've been watering him with an extremely diluted version of Gatorade, because I don't have electrolytes handy, and that's what I've seen used as an emergency electrolyte.
I offered him some bread as a little treat to see if he would try to eat but since it's now nearly 10 PM here he's probably going to ignore it. I'm finding myself really attached to him.. I was when I first saw him, the only dull brown and black pidgie at the cinema I sat down near, but he's just really something special.

I feed the pidgies at the cinema during my breaks sometimes. My coworkers think it's a weird habit for an 18 year old chick, but hey.. I enjoy it. Different ones show up. There's a piebald pigeon there who's just gorgeous, and one jet black pij..
there's also a really pale, mostly white one that hasn't come to feed with my flock yet.. I hope it does, I only get glimpses of it..

anyway.

Any tips and ideas on how to care for this pij are welcome. My mom doesn't know and she told dad she didn't want me bringing one home. Of course, he told me AFTER I brought one home..
lol

Once again, if there are any experienced pigeon keepers in Texas, just north of Houston, who would like to take Bonk the pigeon in, that would be great. I love him to death but I don't know what Mom will do/say if she comes in the house while I'm at work and finds him..

thanks!
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pdpbison pdpbison is offline
Posted 28th August 2007, 10:03 PM
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Hi Caliandra,



Just a couple mentions, I am short on time just now.


Seeds, any good Finch or Parakeet Seed, and if you can, also, some regular Pigeon Mix...


Nuts are problematic, and unless Raw and fresh and made to be in quite small pieces, are a definite "no"...


Once you have some Seeds for him, if he is doing the 'swoopy' peck motion, try this -


Drape a towell flat over your lap...have him on your lap in the low area where the towell is slightly depressed between your thighs...have a small Seed Bowl tilted toward him which is resting somewhat on one thigh...so it is at his chest level. Seed Bowl needs to be over an inch deep but not much more, and the smaller the diameter the better. Those little Custard Cups are good, or cut off the bottom inch and a half of a to-go cup.


And, steadying him with your left hand on his shoulders gently, and your palm on his back, so he will not be skooting backwards, have your right hand make a sort of loose finger 'cage' around his Head, even grasping the tops of the sides of the small Seed Bowl with your finger tips to keep his Head down so he can peck without lifting his Head much.

If he is 'swooping' to the side with his pecks, then gently use your fingertips to directly steady his Beak so it is pointing down, and somewhat out so it is not against his neck, even guiding it that way into the Seeds.


Small Seeds such as Finch or Parakeet Seed, he can 'gobble' this way, and larger ones, he can likely peck with yout steadying his Beak directly.


This is a gentle co-ordination of course, but they will usualy understand it fairly quickly and appreciate it and go with it.


Once he and you get the hang of this ( and that can happen right off the Bat, too) he may well be able to peck 'Like a Jack Hammer' without suffering all those extra head and neck movements, and, in fact, can get a good sized meal under his belt in no time, so if anything, be careful he does not over eat, especially if he is still young and might tend to. Two Tablespoons worth of Seeds sholuld be fine for any given meal time, and two or three of these meal times a day would be plenty.

And offer Water often, and make it tepid...do not leave water for him, but you offer it off and on through out the day and evenings...and when you do, simply gently grasp his Beak between finger tips and guide it into the Water for him to drink...him standing on front of the small Water Bowl.

...if he wants to drink, of course he will, and if not he will wish to pull back out. Just guide his beak in to 3/4rs of it's length is all...not deeper and see to it he does raise his head well after drinking to avoid any choking possibilitys, just lift his Beak 'UP' high, once he is done drinking, pulling his Neck out as you do so...and holding it there for a moment to make sure the Water is in fact all done going down, then release.


This might be a injury form hitting a Window, and not PMV...


I have had Window Birds who had various Nerve injury compromises, and these can take months to clear up.

If he is not 'Star Gazing' or having similar episodes...and if his poops are alright ( once he is eating Seeds) then that would tend to loan more probability to injury from hitting the Window.


Good luck..!


Get some Seeds...!

No more Nuts...



Phil
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Feefo Feefo is offline
Posted 28th August 2007, 10:20 PM
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Hi Caliandra,

This is my web page on PMV, it has information on treatment and handling of pigeons with PMV .http://www.pigeon-aid.pigeon.net/pmv.htm

I have rescued several pigeons with PMV over the years and have had to have them in the house at the same time as I had pigeons that were clear of the disease indoors. There has never been a transmission of PMV from a sick bird to a healthy one.

But I agree with Terry, there are some aspects of the symptoms that you describe that makes concussion or paratyphoid a strong possinility.

I advise people against treating pigeons with PMV with antibiotics because that can aggravate the course of the disease, but if I were you I would treat him with Baytril.

If you had Exotic Newcastle Disease in the area it would have shown itself in domestic poultry, they are vulnerable to it. Pigeons can catch it, but it is rare for them to have it . As far as I remember when a sma;;; number were found to have caught the disease it was as a result of mingling with infected chickens.


Cynthia
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...while all the time your dear full-throated pigeons will be heard, and the turtledove high in the elm will never bring her cooing to an end. (Virgil)

Last edited by Feefo; 28th August 2007 at 10:29 PM..
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Caliandra Caliandra is offline
Posted 28th August 2007, 10:35 PM
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Okay.
I am beginning to think that this is a concussion then. My friends at the theatre said he flew into the window quite often, and I've witnessed a few of his hits. He always got back up and flew off or walked over to food.
I think another aspect would be lack of food. They throw popcorn kernels out and the oldest pigeons get there first and gobble it up really fast. I don't think he had quite got the hang of pigeon feeding frenzies..

That and the biggest male in the flock was beating the crap out of him when I arrived to throw them seed. It took me a while to catch Bonk, despite his disability. he flew fine but landed bad. He actually didn't have the flight affecting symptoms described in PMV..
He doesn't turn his head all the way upside down or fling it about without reason. In fact, he's never turned his head upside down since I first saw him. He does sit with his head tilted very slightly to one side, but he usually straightens when I talk to him, and tries to look at me.

I guess I will have to look up Baytril and see about buying it. I'm awfully low on money though.. I'm currently working at Goodwill... and they don't pay very well..


Thanks bunches!
Cali
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TAWhatley TAWhatley is offline
Posted 29th August 2007, 12:06 AM
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Location: Lake Forest, CA, USA
Posts: 21,208
If you are close enough, check with Roger's Wildlife and see if they can help .. http://www.rogerswildlife.org/

Terry



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pdpbison pdpbison is offline
Posted 29th August 2007, 12:29 AM
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Hi Cali,



I tried a fast revuew of your thread here...

"Baytril" for...?


If there are no signs of predation or Bites/punctures, he probably does not have any need of a systemic antibiotic.

If he was flying as you mention, he would not likely have an illness for which Baytril owuld be used.


But, he probably does need...time, gentleness, safety, real food, food which is good for Pigeons...and to be allowed to catch up to himself.


Get him real Bird Seed, and if you can, actual Pigeon Mix ( any Feed store or Farm store should have it...)

If he had hit those Windows more than once, then...well, best if be kept away form that place in the future I think...


Good luck..!

Phil
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Feefo Feefo is offline
Posted 29th August 2007, 03:17 AM
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Hi Calandria,

Keep an eye on the flock, if this is PMV then other cases might appear.

There are also two symptoms that are seen in PMV and not in concussion: one is the thin, hard wormlike poop in a lot of clear water, the other is seed tossing, when the pigeon manages to pick up a seed he seems to stagger and toss it over his head. The problem is that there is no guarantee that a pigeon suffering from PMV would show these symptoms.

Keep up the isolation from other birds and the hygiene precautions and give him vitamins and probiotics. That will help him whatever it is.

I have had a little squeaker in a very similar state. It was three weeks into isolation that he turned his head completely upside down. I still don't know whether his problem was PMV or not, but I had to keep him isolated just in case it was.


I
Quote:
tried a fast revuew of your thread here...

"Baytril" for...?


If there are no signs of predation or Bites/punctures, he probably does not have any need of a systemic antibiotic.

If he was flying as you mention, he would not likely have an illness for which Baytril owuld be used.
Phil, pigeons with paratyphoid can fly and the possibility of the symptoms being paratyphoid was mentioned in both Terry's reply and mine. Baytril is the remedy for paratyphoid. Please try to read what has been said before giving advice, it will save a lot of confusion.

Cynthia
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...while all the time your dear full-throated pigeons will be heard, and the turtledove high in the elm will never bring her cooing to an end. (Virgil)

Last edited by Feefo; 29th August 2007 at 03:25 AM..
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pdpbison pdpbison is offline
Posted 29th August 2007, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyro51 View Post

Phil, pigeons with paratyphoid can fly and the possibility of the symptoms being paratyphoid was mentioned in both Terry's reply and mine. Baytril is the remedy for paratyphoid. Please try to read what has been said before giving advice, it will save a lot of confusion.

Cynthia


Oh, okay



Phil
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Caliandra Caliandra is offline
Posted 29th August 2007, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyro51 View Post
Hi Calandria,

Keep an eye on the flock, if this is PMV then other cases might appear.

There are also two symptoms that are seen in PMV and not in concussion: one is the thin, hard wormlike poop in a lot of clear water, the other is seed tossing, when the pigeon manages to pick up a seed he seems to stagger and toss it over his head. The problem is that there is no guarantee that a pigeon suffering from PMV would show these symptoms.

Keep up the isolation from other birds and the hygiene precautions and give him vitamins and probiotics. That will help him whatever it is.

I have had a little squeaker in a very similar state. It was three weeks into isolation that he turned his head completely upside down. I still don't know whether his problem was PMV or not, but I had to keep him isolated just in case it was.



Phil, pigeons with paratyphoid can fly and the possibility of the symptoms being paratyphoid was mentioned in both Terry's reply and mine. Baytril is the remedy for paratyphoid. Please try to read what has been said before giving advice, it will save a lot of confusion.

Cynthia
Okay. Well so far none of them are showing signs. I suspect that it may just be a concussion..

as for his poop
Yesterday they were watery but the dark part was slightly smushy with a little bit of white. this morning there weren't any fresh ones. I cleaned up a few yesterday that were mushy and in water..

the seed tossing he only does every once in a while, Usually he just does that head swoop to the left. so far it's only been to the left, too.. which makes my dad suspect that he is blind in his left eye and can't see the food well. He doesn't respond to waving around his left eye unless a shadow hits it, and even then he might not. With his right it comes and goes. I think it's from all of the head damage from flying into the windows, but I'm not positive.

I know a rehabilitator that can probably take him in. I was pondering whether or not to call her. Ali is extremely nice, and does a good job, but I'm not sure if she'll have room. I guess I'll have to call and ask when I get home..


Thanks for the advice!
Cali
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Feefo Feefo is offline
Posted 29th August 2007, 10:07 AM
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If him to a rehabilitator first check to ensure they don't euthanase if the pigeon is unreleasable or if they suspect PMV.

Cynthia
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...while all the time your dear full-throated pigeons will be heard, and the turtledove high in the elm will never bring her cooing to an end. (Virgil)
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Caliandra Caliandra is offline
Posted 29th August 2007, 05:01 PM
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He's getting worse. I suspect PMV. His head spasms are even worse than they were before. He's also tending to fling his head back after grabbing food now. I placed food in front of him after I got home and he tried to eat, but he keeps turning in circles and his head wanders left and right.. he doesn't freak at loud noises but his movements are more random and spastic. It seems like the case is getting worse

I want to call Ali and ask her but I'd hate for her to say it's better to put him down. I'm kinda worried about that.
As for the flock, they all bombarded me today. I forgot the food but I sat and watched them and they didn't show any signs of PMV. I can't be sure that he isn't from another flock or that the others his age haven't passed on though.

he's circling again. I think I'd better help him out..

Any more advice? I really don't know if I can pull him through. I got a ticket for a minor accident, but I'm not sure if I even did it, and I barely make enough to cover food and bills. I'm getting more worried by the minute.


Cali
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Caliandra Caliandra is offline
Posted 29th August 2007, 05:16 PM
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Oh.. and one other question..
as of right now I have a birdseed mix consisting of black sunflower seeds, baby chick feed, and a wild bird food. Is this enough? I'm giving water and the seed..

by the way, he caught on to the feeding trick with the hands and towel instantly. He's really friggin' smart. I hope I, or someone else, can take this bird and save his life. He's a sweety. :S

Edit:another question lol
I don't have any birdie type vitamins or anything, and right now money is scarce. I can't really get any of the probiotics or vitamins that he might need. I'm really worried about that too.

Last edited by Caliandra; 29th August 2007 at 05:34 PM..
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pdpbison pdpbison is offline
Posted 29th August 2007, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliandra View Post
Oh.. and one other question..
as of right now I have a birdseed mix consisting of black sunflower seeds, baby chick feed, and a wild bird food. Is this enough? I'm giving water and the seed..

by the way, he caught on to the feeding trick with the hands and towel instantly. He's really friggin' smart. I hope I, or someone else, can take this bird and save his life. He's a sweety. :S

Edit:another question lol
I don't have any birdie type vitamins or anything, and right now money is scarce. I can't really get any of the probiotics or vitamins that he might need. I'm really worried about that too.


Hi Caliandra,


Good then...! You are finding success with having a cupped hand-finger 'Cage' over his Head, while steadying him with your other hand, so he can Peck his Seeds without all that extra Head and Neck motion...glad to hear...


Having him drink with supervision, would be the same method. Tepid Water might be nicer for him than cold or room temperature. But make Tepid Water from "Cold" Tap water, and not the 'hot'...



Unless the Sunflower Seeds are the VERY small kind, the so called 'Black Oil Seeds', I would eliminate them from his Seeds Bowl mix.


Wild Bird Seed mix is alright, just toss the Sunflower Seeds...not great, but alright...maybe get some Finch or Parakeet Seed mix at Petsmart or something, which will cost about $5.00 for a bag, and add that also.

If your household has any really Fresh, Oilive Oil, one which has not been opened for more than a few days, you can add a light glistening of it to his Seeds, stirring them to it is evenly distributed, and this is good for him too.

If it is old, or been in the cupboard a while, do not use it...or any other Oils which are not absolutely fresh and wholesome.


Otherwise, just keep doing what you are doing...try and keep him full with chow times...he may recover fully, partially, or slowly for either, and it will take time, no doubt...



Phil
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