Help with diagnosing/treating white homer hen

[Avaest]

Hi. I have a lovely white 2017 homing pigeon hen. She has lost some weight (weighs 10 3/4oz) so I’ve been feeding her extra almonds and safflower.
She is eating and drinking, but is lethargic.
She is very reluctant to fly. If I throw her in the air she immediately lands with minimal flapping. I put her in the middle of my (non busy) street today to see if she would fly back to the loft and she walked to the front door and waited for me to pick her up and put her in. She often is falling/missing the landing spot when I throw her. She seems weaker, but her droppings are well formed and appear healthy. She does have a foul smelling odor in her mouth/crop but no signs of canker there. She also had a bad feather mite infestation but ive treated her with bird mite spray and baths so this is significantly improved.
Anyone experience a foul odor from the mouth/crop? I’ve smelled this odor on ill pigeons in the past but don’t know what it means. It smells slightly sour/fermenting which you would expect from a crop but this smells..off. I’ve started her on a 7 day course of a 4-in-1 antibiotic which would cover ecoli and canker...any other suggestions?
Thanks,
Ava
P.s. her beak has dirt on it, she was just out in the yard picking around with my other birds for a while.
Edit: forgot to mention, she has a taste for rolly-Polly bugs...like runs after them to get them. Any chance they’re poisonous?

[jameswaller]

Originally Posted by Avaest

Hi. I have a lovely white 2017 homing pigeon hen. She has lost some weight (weighs 10 3/4oz) so I’ve been feeding her extra almonds and safflower.
She is eating and drinking, but is lethargic.
She is very reluctant to fly. If I throw her in the air she immediately lands with minimal flapping. I put her in the middle of my (non busy) street today to see if she would fly back to the loft and she walked to the front door and waited for me to pick her up and put her in. She often is falling/missing the landing spot when I throw her. She seems weaker, but her droppings are well formed and appear healthy. She does have a foul smelling odor in her mouth/crop but no signs of canker there. She also had a bad feather mite infestation but ive treated her with bird mite spray and baths so this is significantly improved.
Anyone experience a foul odor from the mouth/crop? I’ve smelled this odor on ill pigeons in the past but don’t know what it means. It smells slightly sour/fermenting which you would expect from a crop but this smells..off. I’ve started her on a 7 day course of a 4-in-1 antibiotic which would cover ecoli and canker...any other suggestions?
Thanks,
Ava
P.s. her beak has dirt on it, she was just out in the yard picking around with my other birds for a while.
Edit: forgot to mention, she has a taste for rolly-Polly bugs...like runs after them to get them. Any chance they’re poisonous?

dear avaest,-the poop looks,ok,but it might change,.-smelly breath-could be sour crop-in which case offer seeds and grain-with[probotics]-and water/ electrolyte,-lets try to flush out the sytem,keep an eye on the poops--she is georgeous--,I weigh my birds on kg scale-[more accurate],-I calculate she is about 320kg,which is good--watch poops/weight,-someone else may weigh in on the antibiotics-but I say not yet,---i have several,and just lost one to beeking.--sincerely james waller-

[Avaest]

Thanks James. I'll try ACV water, probiotics, and avoiding food for a few days to see if that helps...
Does anyone know if sour crop eventually self resolves?

[Avaest]

Just wanted to add an update: no improvement today. Yesterday evening she vomited for the first time- seeds and a smelly yellowish/cream fluid. She's still not willing/unable to fly. She tried to fly once earlier today when one of my other birds flew over to her, but once again she missed the ledge she was aiming for and somewhat clumsily fell/flew down to the ground.
I did discontinue the 4-1 antibiotic powder in her water-- she was on it for only 1 day. After reading several posts it seems this stuff isn't the way to go as it's not specific enough/ too weak to treat some problems. I replaced the antibiotic powder water with ACV water / probiotic/ electrolyte water. It's fairly dilute but I don't want to do way too much at once and stress her further. I'm allowing her to eat a little bit (maybe I shouldn't??) but she does not seem to have crop stasis. Her weight this evening was 230g.
I supplemented her with an appropriate dose of calcium and vitamin D3, in the off chance her weakness is due to that, but I'm not too suspicious- she gets plenty of time in sunlight and always has grit with adequate calcium available. She does not have a mate and has not been laying eggs regularly- but she has in the past without any issues.

Now her droppings are smelly as well, not just her mouth. I did turn her upside down after she drank a bit of water and obtained a drop of aspirate which I looked at under the microscope. There may have been some hyphae but honestly they weren't branching and I did not visualize any buds nor trich. I'm going to try this again tomorrow with a fresh dropping, but for now the poor bird is sick of me fussing over her... I really am trying to figure out what this is early so I can treat it soon. Tomorrow I'll take pictures of the microscope findings and post.
-Ava

[Marina B]

Canker is not always visible in the beak and throat. I would treat her for canker and yeast simultaneously. Best product for canker: Meditrich by Medpet 50 mg once daily. For yeast: Nystatin on an empty crop twice daily. Wait half an hour and then let her eat.

[Avaest]

Checked a fecal wet mount today and found one budding yeast... was hoping to see a bit more for confirmation but it does look pretty classic. I have limited knowledge on fecal wet mount findings... does anyone know if budding yeast would be expected to be seen on a fecal wet mount of a healthy bird vs infected bird? Should I be seeing more yeast if it is an imbalance?
Ava

[Avaest]

Originally Posted by Marina B

Canker is not always visible in the beak and throat. I would treat her for canker and yeast simultaneously. Best product for canker: Meditrich by Medpet 50 mg once daily. For yeast: Nystatin on an empty crop twice daily. Wait half an hour and then let her eat.

Alright!!
This morning I filled Zeppelin’s crop with a little water using a feeding syringe, then massaged her crop, tipped her upside down and obtained a small fluid sample. I proceeded to observe under the microscope which revealed very clearly budding yeast as well as many live trichomonads, swimming about. I started her on Flagyl and will start her on Nystatin this evening.
Thank you so much for the suggestions, Marina you were right on!
Kindly,
Ava

[Ladygrey]

I assume you know the bird is a hen because she has laid eggs before? .. does she have a mate?

My first thought was an egg development issue... but yeast and seeing trich in certain numbers can cause sickness...especially if her immunities are low.. but then we need to know, why? , as those are always present naturally but do not always make them ill, because their immunities usually keep those in check. .. so just seeing it does not mean that is making her ill.. it is in what numbers.. but it is great you can look and see.. I just do not know at what numbers cause illness symptoms like lethargy.... her dropping looks ok.

[Marina B]

Hope she makes a speedy recovery. Let us know.

[Avaest]

Originally Posted by Ladygrey

I assume you know the bird is a hen because she has laid eggs before? .. does she have a mate?

My first thought was an egg development issue... but yeast and seeing trich in certain numbers can cause sickness...especially if her immunities are low.. but then we need to know, why? , as those are always present naturally but do not always make them ill, because their immunities usually keep those in check. .. so just seeing it does not mean that is making her ill.. it is in what numbers.. but it is great you can look and see.. I just do not know at what numbers cause illness symptoms like lethargy.... her dropping looks ok.

Hi! Yes, I know she is a hen as she has laid eggs before. I think she was stressed from traveling/change of care. I left the country so had her staying in a larger aviary with my other 30 pigeons. Usually she is one of 3 I keep at my house in a smaller loft, but I do let the three visit frequently for “pigeon time”. The three are more “pet” like than the rest of my pretty pidgeys. So far with the nystatin and Flagyl she’s doing good, I gave her Nystatin around 4:30am then breakfast and Flagyl at 7:30a. She ate a big breakfast with gusto today! The pic is of the bigger aviary, she’s the 4th from the left. She gets along well with the others, but perhaps the long duration of my trip had her stressed. I really hope this regimen of nystatin/ Flagyl works, there definitely were multiple swimming trichomonads in the crop aspirate, but I hear what you’re saying that these organisms can be present with healthy birds as well.

[Ladygrey]

Are you aware that pigeons pair up with a mate and keep the same mate?

If this hen is laying eggs then she is paired up, and being taken from who ever that is as you don’t seem to know , can cause stress and unnecessary upset.

[Avaest]

Originally Posted by Ladygrey

Are you aware that pigeons pair up with a mate and keep the same mate?

If this hen is laying eggs then she is paired up, and being taken from who ever that is as you don’t seem to know , can cause stress and unnecessary upset.

Hi! Yes I am well aware of that Her mate passed away over a year ago and the poor thing has tried to find a new mate, but for an unknown reason has not. I suspect it is because her deceased mate was tame and somewhat of a pet like her, and because she has become too accustomed to being around me (humans). As I write she just jumped down from her breakfast area and walked over to my feet. I’ve tried putting her in a breeding loft with two different males (different times) but nothing stuck. At one point one of the males and her started cuddling but every time I’d put them back with the other birds they lost interest in each other. Now when I try to bring them together they sit on opposite sides of the breeding loft. One pigeon was two-timing her with another hen, but he liked the other hen more. I think that was tough on her and it might be a stretch, but I’m worried she thinks something is wrong with her... but, I’m probably applying human emotion to birds.
Perhaps if she recovers I should adopt a new male to see if someone completely new will mate up with her. My best guess is she has become too attached to humans and hence the lack of interest in birds. If anyone else has any tips on how to pair pigeons up I’d love to hear suggestions. Especially if anyone has semi or tame pigeons like her.

[Avaest]

10/1 update.
I treated Zeppelin for 5 days with Nystatin (on an empty crop as recommended) and Flagyl twice daily for 7 days. She has put on a little weight (330g now) however for the size of bird and compared to her sisters her weight is still not back to normal.
My main concern now is the drooping wings and reluctance to fly. She used to fly quick, fast circles around my house and could make it home faster than me on a five mile exercise flight. She now will only flight from a higher area down— never from the ground up.
Any other ideas? Just an injury that caused her immunity to lower..? Her droppings are still healthy appearing. Her appetite is mediocre. She does chase one of my Chinese owls away from her resting area so she’s not feeling completely normal. Yet, I am sure she is still not feeling great. Can mites do this? She had a very bad case 2 weeks ago but has since been treated...

[Marina B]

Did you do another test to check if the yeast and canker are until control? 7 days for canker treatment is the minimum one will do, sometimes it takes longer to get rid of canker.

It will take time for her to gain weight and regain her strength.

[Ladygrey]

Originally Posted by Avaest

Hi! Yes, I know she is a hen as she has laid eggs before. I think she was stressed from traveling/change of care. I left the country so had her staying in a larger aviary with my other 30 pigeons. Usually she is one of 3 I keep at my house in a smaller loft, but I do let the three visit frequently for “pigeon time”. The three are more “pet” like than the rest of my pretty pidgeys. So far with the nystatin and Flagyl she’s doing good, I gave her Nystatin around 4:30am then breakfast and Flagyl at 7:30a. She ate a big breakfast with gusto today! The pic is of the bigger aviary, she’s the 4th from the left. She gets along well with the others, but perhaps the long duration of my trip had her stressed. I really hope this regimen of nystatin/ Flagyl works, there definitely were multiple swimming trichomonads in the crop aspirate, but I hear what you’re saying that these organisms can be present with healthy birds as well.

Yes, pigeons carry organisms all the time. It is when the pigeon gets stressed and low immunity that these organisms take over.

As well as treating the pigeon , her immunities need to be built up. Separated with rest, nutrition such as in supplements with her grain and seed diet. Calcium after her antibiotics.. which that medicine can have a bad effect on good gut bacteria that keeps them healthy.. so PRObiotics, high nutrition, such as Harrison’s recovery formula and even the high potency fine pellets., hand feeding if need be, adding medications can be a hard balance esp if the pigeon is already weak. There are b complex additives for chickens put in the water drinker that may be given as well. I would rest this pigeon its own carrier , it may take months.. better yet take her to a vet.