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cassandrabeiling cassandrabeiling is offline
Posted 22nd September 2019, 08:42 PM
Join Date: May 2017
Country: United States
Posts: 3
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Please help! 2 dead, 2 more sick


I have a flock of barn doves (perhaps 50) on my little 5-acre farm.
On 9/9/19 I found a down dove, neurological symptoms, floppy, head bobbing. Of course I isolated it right away. Still tried to eat and drink. It died on 9/14.
On 9/13, before it died, I discovered another one a little wobbly on the ground. I isolated it as well. It died within a few days.
9/18/19 scooped up another one, same symptoms that is currently still alive but getting more floppy by the day.
9/20/19 found yet another one. This one is still upright but just gets a bit off kilter when it's startled by me tending to them.
I am dipping beaks and feeding chick crumbles and green peas.
So by last Thursday 9/19 I was thinking PMV. But there have been zero respiratory signs. Would that be normal for PMV? I'm going to call my vet tomorrow (who also raises pigeons), and if another one dies, take it to the state vet for a necropsy.
I had been reading that with supportive care that a majority of the pigeons will live, though probably still show symptoms. Mine are all following the same path to death within a few days of being discovered.
BUT then it came to mind that I put out some rat poison about 3-4 weeks ago, supposedly safe for livestock (not doves I'm sure) but even so, because of chickens and doves, I tried to tuck it away in hidey-holes that were high-traffic areas for mice and rats. So now i'm wondering if some of the doves had found some of that. I can't find data on what symptoms pigeons or doves have to rat poison. Any help and advice would be appreciated.

I did post on a different thread seeking advice but only had a person post a link about PMV, which I have already read all about PMV. So if anyone can speak to THIS situation based on what I've shared, I would be so grateful.
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Colombina Colombina is offline
Posted 23rd September 2019, 06:17 AM
Join Date: Jan 2017
Country: Italy
Posts: 706
Hi, I have experience with rat poison (I treated and adopted a poisoned pigeon) but just with anticoagulant poison (the one in red grains).

There are also non-anticoagulant rat poison (like Bromethalin, etc), symptoms could be seizures, neurologic signs, etc.
Here you can find many information about the two categories of poison, general symptoms, clinical signs of each specific poison, etc.

https://cwhl.vet.cornell.edu/disease...ity#collapse11

Check the package of the poison that you put and read if it's a non-anticoagulant poison and if it exists an antidote. You could also contact the manufacturer or the poison control center. About what I read in the link "The treatment for non-anticoagulant rodenticide poisoning is typically only supportive care". I also read that "Diagnosis of non-anticoagulant rodenticide toxicity is based on detection of the chemical in the digestive system or tissues of the animal" .

I think you should urgently bring a dead bird to the vet for a necropsy and ask him an advise about proper supportive care (or about an antidote if existing).

It's important to understand if they are dying because of poison or because of an outbreak of a disease (the PMV pigeons that I rescued and adopted never had respiratory issues). You could maybe bring even a sample of poop.

I would also remove all the poison (it's important to always put poison in bait stations).

Last edited by Colombina; 23rd September 2019 at 06:24 AM.. Reason: Additional info
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jameswaller jameswaller is offline
Posted 23rd September 2019, 11:11 AM
Join Date: Nov 2008
Country: United States
Location: kent,wash.usa
Posts: 477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colombina View Post
Hi, I have experience with rat poison (I treated and adopted a poisoned pigeon) but just with anticoagulant poison (the one in red grains).

There are also non-anticoagulant rat poison (like Bromethalin, etc), symptoms could be seizures, neurologic signs, etc.
Here you can find many information about the two categories of poison, general symptoms, clinical signs of each specific poison, etc.

https://cwhl.vet.cornell.edu/disease...ity#collapse11

Check the package of the poison that you put and read if it's a non-anticoagulant poison and if it exists an antidote. You could also contact the manufacturer or the poison control center. About what I read in the link "The treatment for non-anticoagulant rodenticide poisoning is typically only supportive care". I also read that "Diagnosis of non-anticoagulant rodenticide toxicity is based on detection of the chemical in the digestive system or tissues of the animal" .

I think you should urgently bring a dead bird to the vet for a necropsy and ask him an advise about proper supportive care (or about an antidote if existing).

It's important to understand if they are dying because of poison or because of an outbreak of a disease (the PMV pigeons that I rescued and adopted never had respiratory issues). You could maybe bring even a sample of poop.

I would also remove all the poison (it's important to always put poison in bait stations).
dear Colombia,-I adore your response,-I do use bait stations-otherwise everything else becomes the target.--however on the down side--someone dumped a beautiful long hair gray kitten-approx.4months old,-I spotted her in the garage and managed to catch her,for several hours she drank/ate very well-then a sudden change in behavior[lethargic-weak]-and died,-all I could think was a rat had taken the bait,ran into the garage where the kitten [starving] ate some of the rat.--but I still keep the bait stations full-and I can only pray rats continue to be the only intended target.--sincerely james waller
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cassandrabeiling cassandrabeiling is offline
Posted 23rd September 2019, 12:21 PM
Join Date: May 2017
Country: United States
Posts: 3

I used Rat X


So with additional research, supposedly Rat X is safe for all other animals, including pigeons. The most active ingredient is sodium chloride (table salt). I have taken Bird #3 into the vet to open up. It was close to dead when I dropped it off . Bird #4 still holding its own as of this morning, which is way longer than the others after several days.
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Colombina Colombina is offline
Posted 24th September 2019, 04:56 AM
Join Date: Jan 2017
Country: Italy
Posts: 706
Quote:
Originally Posted by cassandrabeiling View Post
So with additional research, supposedly Rat X is safe for all other animals, including pigeons. The most active ingredient is sodium chloride (table salt). I have taken Bird #3 into the vet to open up. It was close to dead when I dropped it off [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.pigeons.biz/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG]. Bird #4 still holding its own as of this morning, which is way longer than the others after several days.
I have never heard of that type of rat poison so I don't know nothing about it.

I looked for information about salt poisoning, I'm going to copy an extract from this website (it's an article about electrolytes):

http://www.crpu.ca/electrolytes-and-racing-pigeons/

"... birds like pigeons that don’t have salt glands are able to tolerate high amounts of sodium, potassium or chloride in the diet as long as they have ready access to fresh water. The increased intake of water allows the kidneys to excrete high levels of these electrolytes in urine, resulting in dilute urine and wet droppings. If pigeons don’t have water available, salt poisoning can occur, causing dehydration, diarrhea, staggering, nervousness, and death".

Even here I read about salt poisoning, they say that symptoms could be similar to PMV.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24988870/

"Due to the similarity of symptoms of paramyxovirosis to the pigeon herpes virus infection (PHV), sodium chloride poisoning, overdose of ronidazole or vitamin B1 deficiency, it is necessary to perform laboratory tests to make a correct diagnosis".


I think that the best thing is see what the vet says after the necropsy.
For example, even salmonella could cause neurological symptoms.

How is bird #4 doing? Is he drinking enough?
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Colombina Colombina is offline
Posted 24th September 2019, 05:28 AM
Join Date: Jan 2017
Country: Italy
Posts: 706
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswaller View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colombina View Post
Hi, I have experience with rat poison (I treated and adopted a poisoned pigeon) but just with anticoagulant poison (the one in red grains).

There are also non-anticoagulant rat poison (like Bromethalin, etc), symptoms could be seizures, neurologic signs, etc.
Here you can find many information about the two categories of poison, general symptoms, clinical signs of each specific poison, etc.

https://cwhl.vet.cornell.edu/disease...ity#collapse11

Check the package of the poison that you put and read if it's a non-anticoagulant poison and if it exists an antidote. You could also contact the manufacturer or the poison control center. About what I read in the link "The treatment for non-anticoagulant rodenticide poisoning is typically only supportive care". I also read that "Diagnosis of non-anticoagulant rodenticide toxicity is based on detection of the chemical in the digestive system or tissues of the animal" .

I think you should urgently bring a dead bird to the vet for a necropsy and ask him an advise about proper supportive care (or about an antidote if existing).

It's important to understand if they are dying because of poison or because of an outbreak of a disease (the PMV pigeons that I rescued and adopted never had respiratory issues). You could maybe bring even a sample of poop.

I would also remove all the poison (it's important to always put poison in bait stations).
dear Colombia,-I adore your response,-I do use bait stations-otherwise everything else becomes the target.--however on the down side--someone dumped a beautiful long hair gray kitten-approx.4months old,-I spotted her in the garage and managed to catch her,for several hours she drank/ate very well-then a sudden change in behavior[lethargic-weak]-and died,-all I could think was a rat had taken the bait,ran into the garage where the kitten [starving] ate some of the rat.--but I still keep the bait stations full-and I can only pray rats continue to be the only intended target.--sincerely james waller [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.pigeons.biz/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG]
I'm really sorry to hear about the poor kitten 😞.... Unfortunately poison could be dangerous even when all necessary precautions are taken to avoid any risk of accident...

I know that some people use mouse cage traps and then release mice far from home, have you ever tried that method?
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Ladygrey Ladygrey is offline
Posted 24th September 2019, 08:14 PM
Join Date: Dec 2016
Country: ************
Posts: 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by cassandrabeiling View Post
So with additional research, supposedly Rat X is safe for all other animals, including pigeons. The most active ingredient is sodium chloride (table salt). I have taken Bird #3 into the vet to open up. It was close to dead when I dropped it off . Bird #4 still holding its own as of this morning, which is way longer than the others after several days.
Following..
Interested in what the necropsy says .

https://www.oie.int/doc/ged/D9310.PDF

Last edited by Ladygrey; 24th September 2019 at 08:24 PM..
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